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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5633830" data-attributes="member: 957">Thanks.  I admit that I've spent so many months in debates in which the terms of dispute were that 4E provided exactly the same experience as prior editions that I have become conditioned to presume that.  But, not breaking out of that conditioning is no one's fault but mine.  It is gratifying to see that the conversation has settled this point.Now, I don't agree with your characterization here.  My games work perfectly well under both your Clancey label and under your Lovecraft label.  And I can certainly make up rationalizations on the fly as needed.  These are not the issue.Neither Clancey nor Lovecraft used externally imposed patterns on the plot elements of their narratives.  I don't want those (amongst other specific elements of 4E) in my preferred RPG experience.</blockquote>