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In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics
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<blockquote data-quote="Pour" data-source="post: 5634457" data-attributes="member: 59411"><p>I don't think anyone is disputing what Bry and Yesway think of 4e. chaochou, Crazy Jerome, wrecan, Hussar, pemerton and Neonchameleon full well accept the edition is challenged. What is being disputed is Bry's and Yesway's logical conclusions given certain information, so far as I can figure, and their insistence on their claims despite six people illustrating a supposed counter point. </p><p></p><p>Now from an outside perspective, it doesn't seem as if Bry or Yesway wants to entertain any other stance than what they decided upon entering the thread, and I'm not certain anyone else really does either.</p><p></p><p>That's the bitch of debate, really. If a person is adamant enough to defend something and engage in discourse over it, that person is highly unlikely to ever actually change his or her mind or even flirt with the potential of changing. </p><p></p><p>Why debate it at all, then? Is there something self-gratifying? According to Bry, I think there is, but at the same time frustrating. Frustrating because neither side will win the point, but discourse, debate, 'friendly' arguing by its very nature is not over until someone 'wins' or at least believes they've won. That's where gratifying comes in, the notion one party has made his point and it's irrefutable by his assessment of the resulting counters, never mind the number!</p><p></p><p>We aren't disputing there are 8 hotdogs in a pack. That's absolute (unless you buy those huge Costco packs that're like 16). This rules, no, this 'feels' debate is the real fallacy, that argument built on reasonable assessment of fun is indeed argument of a logical nature. There are clear results of using one rule set for this, or another for that, which can be compared and called different, but empirical evidence only gets someone to a place where he can say the rules look and are designed differently. It leaves that person out in the cold when it comes to proving a generated play experience, which is the heart of these roiling feelings churning in all D&D hobbyists.</p><p></p><p>And that's the bitch of reason, its flimsy nature compared to preference and emotions, in defining meaning or even worth. There is a gross blurring of the lines in all these game debates, I feel it myself, we all do, which at their foundations can only speak to play experiences- which are entirely preference and emotion. </p><p></p><p>And of course when there is passion, things easily become skewed, even if there was some way to create a logical and irrefutable means of assessing a good or bad game, or a better or worse game, which I hold there isn't. </p><p></p><p>You can tell the difference between a true argument and this false circling by the pattern. Bry and Yesway will defend their points and the others theirs, and then on ENWorld, the edition camps will defend their points and the others theirs, until... until... Well, there's a depressing notion. It'll never end.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pour, post: 5634457, member: 59411"] I don't think anyone is disputing what Bry and Yesway think of 4e. chaochou, Crazy Jerome, wrecan, Hussar, pemerton and Neonchameleon full well accept the edition is challenged. What is being disputed is Bry's and Yesway's logical conclusions given certain information, so far as I can figure, and their insistence on their claims despite six people illustrating a supposed counter point. Now from an outside perspective, it doesn't seem as if Bry or Yesway wants to entertain any other stance than what they decided upon entering the thread, and I'm not certain anyone else really does either. That's the bitch of debate, really. If a person is adamant enough to defend something and engage in discourse over it, that person is highly unlikely to ever actually change his or her mind or even flirt with the potential of changing. Why debate it at all, then? Is there something self-gratifying? According to Bry, I think there is, but at the same time frustrating. Frustrating because neither side will win the point, but discourse, debate, 'friendly' arguing by its very nature is not over until someone 'wins' or at least believes they've won. That's where gratifying comes in, the notion one party has made his point and it's irrefutable by his assessment of the resulting counters, never mind the number! We aren't disputing there are 8 hotdogs in a pack. That's absolute (unless you buy those huge Costco packs that're like 16). This rules, no, this 'feels' debate is the real fallacy, that argument built on reasonable assessment of fun is indeed argument of a logical nature. There are clear results of using one rule set for this, or another for that, which can be compared and called different, but empirical evidence only gets someone to a place where he can say the rules look and are designed differently. It leaves that person out in the cold when it comes to proving a generated play experience, which is the heart of these roiling feelings churning in all D&D hobbyists. And that's the bitch of reason, its flimsy nature compared to preference and emotions, in defining meaning or even worth. There is a gross blurring of the lines in all these game debates, I feel it myself, we all do, which at their foundations can only speak to play experiences- which are entirely preference and emotion. And of course when there is passion, things easily become skewed, even if there was some way to create a logical and irrefutable means of assessing a good or bad game, or a better or worse game, which I hold there isn't. You can tell the difference between a true argument and this false circling by the pattern. Bry and Yesway will defend their points and the others theirs, and then on ENWorld, the edition camps will defend their points and the others theirs, until... until... Well, there's a depressing notion. It'll never end. [/QUOTE]
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