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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5635472" data-attributes="member: 87792">Unfortunately for this case, 4e PCs are sometimes different from NPCs at a fluff level.&nbsp; The magic Invokers wield is normally unfamiliar or legendary for a very good reason.&nbsp; And yes, there are similarities.&nbsp; But the 4e hypnotism spell is just the single most basic spell of its type.&nbsp; There is a charm person spell.&nbsp; There are spells that knock people prone with mind control.&nbsp; Or even go right the way to dominating.&nbsp; I don't see your issue here.&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't care if people asking about Zone of Truth and the legal system has never appeared.&nbsp; It's not always an in game problem.&nbsp; It's a world-building problem.&nbsp; If there's someone in every villiage able to cast Zone of Truth (and most villiages have at least one 3rd level cleric) then you have a world where whoever wrote the law and all the local judges have curd for brains.&nbsp; Now it can be handled by giving a reason why they don't use Zone of Truth in the legal system.&nbsp; But if it isn't handled it makes the inhabitants of your world stupid.&nbsp; All of them.&nbsp; And that is a worldbuilding problem.And then there is the problem of merchants and Zone of Truth.&nbsp; Merchants are generally ambitious and just a shade unscrupulous.&nbsp; The ability to deploy Zone of Truth is a huge advantage in negotiations, especially for a relatively honest merchant.&nbsp; And having a Zone of Truth used on you in many schools of bargaining is nasty.&nbsp; It is, as I have mentioned, very easy to find someone who can cast a Zone of Truth, and it's such a powerful aid to negotiations that once you have one single merchant who hires a cleric for this purpose the idea is going to spread like wildfire for anyone negotiating for anything expensive.&nbsp; Once one merchant starts using it, they are all going to want to if only in self defence.&nbsp; Or are going to take countermeasures.&nbsp; Either way it's going to change their negotiating strategy.&nbsp; This means that in 3e if Zone of Truth is not being either used or countered by merchants on a routine basis then there is no merchant who is either smart or thoughtful enough to think about how commons can make them be metter merchants.&nbsp; And never has been.&nbsp; And having all merchants as stupid people is a massive fail in worldbuilding. &nbsp;That's just one spell.&nbsp; And not taking account of it gives you a daft legal system and makes every single one of your merchants stupid.&nbsp; The first is ... understandable if bad practice.&nbsp; Making all your merchants stupid and unimaginative is IMO an epic fail in terms of worldbuilding.&nbsp;Possibly we just have different ideas of what &quot;Worldbuilding&quot; means.&nbsp; You seem to consider it to be somewhere that focusses on a narrow area round the PCs?&nbsp; I consider it to be about the whole world, and the PCs are (at the start) a very minor part.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5635472, member: 87792"] Unfortunately for this case, 4e PCs are sometimes different from NPCs at a fluff level. The magic Invokers wield is normally unfamiliar or legendary for a very good reason. And yes, there are similarities. But the 4e hypnotism spell is just the single most basic spell of its type. There is a charm person spell. There are spells that knock people prone with mind control. Or even go right the way to dominating. I don't see your issue here. I don't care if people asking about Zone of Truth and the legal system has never [I]appeared[/I]. It's not always an in game problem. It's a world-building problem. If there's someone in every villiage able to cast Zone of Truth (and most villiages have at least one 3rd level cleric) then you have a world where whoever wrote the law and [I]all[/I] the local judges have curd for brains. Now it can be handled by giving a reason why they [I]don't[/I] use Zone of Truth in the legal system. But if it isn't handled it makes the inhabitants of your world [I]stupid.[/I] All of them. And that is a worldbuilding problem. And then there is the problem of merchants and Zone of Truth. Merchants are generally ambitious and just a shade unscrupulous. The ability to deploy Zone of Truth is a [I]huge [/I]advantage in negotiations, especially for a relatively honest merchant. And having a Zone of Truth used on you in many schools of bargaining is [I]nasty[/I]. It is, as I have mentioned, [I]very[/I] easy to find someone who can cast a Zone of Truth, and it's such a powerful aid to negotiations that once you have one single merchant who hires a cleric for this purpose the idea is going to spread like wildfire for anyone negotiating for [I]anything[/I] expensive. Once one merchant starts using it, they are [I]all[/I] going to want to if only in self defence. Or are going to take countermeasures. Either way it's going to change their negotiating strategy. This means that in 3e if Zone of Truth is not being either used or countered by merchants on a routine basis then there is no merchant who is either smart or thoughtful enough to think about how commons can make them be metter merchants. And never has been. And having [I]all [/I]merchants as [I]stupid[/I] people is a massive fail in worldbuilding. That's just one spell. And not taking account of it gives you a daft legal system and makes every single one of your merchants stupid. The first is ... understandable if bad practice. Making all your merchants stupid and unimaginative is IMO an epic fail in terms of worldbuilding. Possibly we just have different ideas of what "Worldbuilding" means. You seem to consider it to be somewhere that focusses on a narrow area round the PCs? I consider it to be about the whole world, and the PCs are (at the start) a very minor part. [/QUOTE]

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