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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5639874" data-attributes="member: 22779">I was thinking about trip as it relates to this thread.  See, your definition of "erect" or "prone" is very telling I think.  In 3e, these terms and exactly how a trip works is defined by the mechanics.  In 3e, I make an attack with some sort of weapon (possibly bare handed), possibly suffering a counter-attack, and if I succeed, then that attack knocks the opponent prone.Every single instance of tripping in 3e works this way AFAIK.  Plus, the idea of a hit is also defined as something along the lines of physically striking your opponent.But, and this is where I think Pem and Yesway's disagreement arrises, 4e's mechanics are disassociated.  Yes, they do include a default narrative, but, it also is pretty clear that this is only included as an example, not as a rule.So, in 4e, there are several powers which cause an opponent to gain the prone condition.  Now, prone is defined as lying on the ground, but, again, 4e definitions are default, not proscriptive.  Anything which you can narratively account for and then slap on the Prone condition works - being off balance, flipped over, whatever.Plus, in 4e, a hit is defined as a successful attack, not as physically striking something.  Thus, you can "hit" with a sword, or a really nasty joke (cf. The 4e Bard) and cause effects and damage.  Thus, when using a power that causes something to become prone, the in-game narrative is not defined by the mechanics.  At no point do the 4e mechanics tell you HOW something works.  They simply tell you what the effects are and the expectation is that the table will self-police themselves to find a rational explanation.  If you want to play 4e with a 3e mindset, it won't work.  Or, at least, it won't work very well.  The mechanics are geared differently.  In 3e, the mechanics are meant to "actually model a state of real people and creatures", the 4e mechanics really, really aren't.</blockquote>

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