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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5639983" data-attributes="member: 42582">Hussar, to my mind your "unarmed attack vs wight" example for 3E, and your "opponent falls ina clatter" and "flinch back from the flames" examples for 4e, are excellent examples of the difference in orientation of simulationist-leaning and metagame-leaning rules (including, for the latter, narration under parameters established by eg keywords). (Cant' XP you yet, though.)I get tripped up by this too.Some of what innerdude has posted seems to me to push in this direction (I think - but innerdude's ideas also seem to be developing a bit from post to post). A lot of what BryonD has posted, in this and other threads, seems to me to push in this direction.This is what I had in mind when I was posting Edwards and Baker upthread - Edwards makes the point that, with metagame/fortune-in-the-middle mechanics, you can narrate as you think best fits your conception of your character, or of the situation. Like with your "falling back in a clatter" example - there are different ways to describe this that have different implications for whether my PC is an incredibly good fencer, or my foe is incredibly clumsy, or even (if I'm going with comedy) that my PC is loveable lucky klutzy kind of guy.And to me - and this is where I see Vincent Baker coming in - a game based around this sort of action resolution naturally tends to support more flexible-but-powerful scene framing, more joint participation in invention and meaning during play rather than preplay. (My paladin example is just a little instance of this.) This sort of mutual, real-time invention isn't going to come unstuck (which is something that innerdude and Yesway Jose seemed worried abut) becaue the mechanics give you the flexibility to keep it going downstream. I think at least two explanations are possible. One is that these posters don't really have much experience, or much of a vivid sense, of how this sort of game is played. So the reason that you and I get tripped up is that these other posters just don't really know what it is they're talking about. (And [MENTION=54877]Crazy Jerome[/MENTION] hinted at this possibility upthread.)Another possible explanation is that these posters, when they talk about "creating a narrative", mean something very very different from what I mean (and, given I think we're on the same page here, from what you and I mean). This is also something that Crazy Jerome hinted at upthread.[MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION]'s description of "being inside the novel" is, I think, an attempt to articulate this sense of "creating a narrative". I have trouble making sense of it, because what I tend to see when "being inside the novel" is combined with "creating a narrative" is loads of GM force being used in either an overt or an illusionist fashion to shape the story and generate that sense of "being inside the novel". I think 2nd ed AD&D, in part because of some stuff in the rulebooks and in part because of the sensibility displayed in its modules and sourcebooks, is particularly prone to this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bit of it around with 3E.But I assume what BryonD and the other immersivists have in mind is something else. But I haven't quite got a handle on what it is, such that the players getting use force too (as mediated and permitted via the action resolution rules) would disrupt it.EDIT: For the sake of clarity - I can see how metagame mechanics might disrupt the sense of "being inside the novel", because they have the potential to make it very obvious to the player that what is taking place is in fact creation rather than literal inhabitation. (I say "might" and "potential" because, depending on both the mechanic in question and the player in quetion, things can go one way or another. As I've said upthread, I don't think my paladin player lost immersion when he also, in a technical or logical sense, entered Director Stance and stipulated something about the Raven Queen on the basis of a metagame reading of a duration mechanic.)The puzzle, or "tripping up", that I'm experiencing is when the "inside the novel" is combined with "creating a narrative".</blockquote>

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