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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pallidore" data-source="post: 6353582" data-attributes="member: 6777732">I welcome the replies.  I do hope we can avoid the vitriolic or ridiculing environment so much of our society, especially the virtual society, has lapsed into.Concerning my post from last night, I was hoping that the rest of what I posted would be addressed, for I thought those points in need of discussion, but only some points were, and I guess I’ll chalk that up to time constraints. For instance, I really think there needs to be a discussion about the disconnect between immersion/character background/player investment vs. lethality, especially where new players and DMs are concerned.  It seems to me the designers should have broken the game up from the get-go into high-risk/combat intensive games and low-medium risk/immersive intense games. Then people could make a knowing choice ahead of time and also know what type of experience they were agreeing to/getting into.  Friends have already told me that the mortality rate for newbies in the starter 5E is fairly high, and even threads on this forum have chronicled such.Pemerton: Very nice analysis of statistical probabilities of Disintegrate and Finger of Death spells.  And I no longer remember my thought pattern when I wrote “cap or HD limit” and hereby withdraw that statement. My contention, however, is not from the straight one-shot damage, but that the character has been damaged first, then hit with one of these spells, from a caster that the character may not even be aware of, or, if aware, that he is a caster, or even if he knows he’s a caster, that he possesses one of these spells (or be able to do much about it, even if he knows). KD:  What about a scenario where the Hold Person spell is cast, target fails save, then caster sends in horde of mooks to finish off?Large amounts of damage in a very short time can be devastating and sometimes moves too fast for PCs and their players.  The period from “doing fine,” to “might die quick” can be compressed tremendously.I agree with you that PCs are under the proverbial gun/knife/blade/etc. every time as opposed to one shot NPCs.  But smart players are going to question the one-way train, where PCs get to do things to others, but are inexplicably immune to like treatment.  Once again, when the intelligent new players catch on, the setting and gaming group (and game and hobby, really) have developed a problem.Admonitions for DMs to refrain from using problematics is perhaps a “duh” for experienced DMs, but for newbie DMs?  Hardly.Too common Standard Operating Procedure patterns are symptomatic of game flaws, and also bore DMs and players alike and take the fun out of fantasy.  Whack, then save-or-else (a better term) scenarios, while far less broken than combos of the past, could take on SOP characteristics. I try to harken back to classic fantasy literature: how prevalent would a spell be?  How often would it be used?  What cost to the caster would there be?  If the game is insufficient in answering those for newbie DMs and players, it seems to me there is a problem. TV: “Spell lists are always expanding in D&D.  All it takes is one incautiously written spell.  Games like D&D just have issues as they’re added to.” Well said!Still, I am hopeful that 5E will delightfully surprise me!</blockquote>

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