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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Man in the Funny Hat" data-source="post: 6023085" data-attributes="member: 32740">Yes, they designed this into the 3E rules, whether they really understood that they were promoting this effect or not.  But, you can design it right back out without breaking things.  You can eliminate the "roleplay-replacement" parts by just flat-out eliminating skills like appraisal, diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive (which in my not so humble opinion never had any real business being there in the first place].  You can change what skills like search, spot, and listen can actually be used for and how.Player 1, "I search the room. I rolled... 29!"DM, [without rolling dice] "You find nothing obvious."Player 2, "I search the walls looking for secret door triggers, see if I can move the strange rock, look under the heavy carpets.  I rolled only 18 though."DM, [satisfied that player 2 is putting forth roleplaying effort, unlike player 1] "There are no secret door triggers but under the rock is a small depression holding a sack of 5 gems and under the carpet is a trap door." Then don't just LET them roll dice alone.  Insist that their roll be accompanied by some description of what they might be doing.  Maybe the rogue character simply rolls dice since he's supposed to be good at this while everybody else has to describe their actions in detail.Just because the rules want to allow themselves to replace or eliminate the need for roleplaying and description doesn't mean you have to LET it.Don't blame the use of grid and miniatures though.  AD&D 1E was recommended to be played with both:Lot's of people didn't like the idea of the expense and "complication" of dealing with miniatures at the time - but then at the time there simply weren't the myriad of miniatures, tokens, vinyl and whiteboard grids, dungeon floorplan illustrations, 3-D dungeon pieces and scale buildings, scale props and so forth to choose from at prices ranging from OhMyGod to free.Old School gaming is not what version of the game you play - it is how you choose to play it.It is.  I've been saying that for years and I'm not the only one.  Don't let written rules get in your way.  They are not there to LIMIT your enjoyment, even if that seems to be what they're promoting.The 3E rules were written and supported by a company which built its initial fortunes on VERY tight control of rules for their card games; having players rely upon and even DEMAND precise and extensive dictation from on high of how to play the game.  It is not surprising that the version of D&D that they then constructed (after first rescuing the D&D game in general from oblivion) featured extensive and even intrusive rules, nor that their approach to supporting the game was to position themselves as the Final Arbiter of all rules rather than hammer home to the DM that HE/SHE was in fact the Final Arbiter of rules at their own table, but then if you needed help on a point of rules to offer a suggestion of how to handle it.</blockquote>

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