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In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?
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<blockquote data-quote="Xetheral" data-source="post: 6983184" data-attributes="member: 6802765"><p>If the <em>point</em> of a given campaign is to adventure, then investment in adventuring makes perfectly good sense. This is true no matter whether it’s a player-driven campaign with adventure-seeking characters or a DM-driven campaign about adventuring. It’s <strong>identical</strong> to a modern business owner doing business to get money so that they can grow their business to get more money to grow their business (including the diversity of potential motivations for starting/continuing on the treadmill).</p><p></p><p>Even if a given campaign isn’t specifically <em>about</em> adventuring, many alternative focuses (including such stalwarts as “saving the world”, “defenders of the realm”, “retrieve the macguffin”) assume that adventuring will be the primary means employed to accomplish the objectives, which likewise makes investment in adventuring perfectly reasonable.</p><p></p><p>So a player doesn’t necessarily have to be motivated primarily by gamist impulses to have their character rationally want to invest gold on becoming a better adventurer.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Awesome! Those are the kinds of games and characters I most enjoy too!</p><p></p><p>But pursuing those types of goals isn’t appropriate in all campaigns—in many of them, <em>it would qualify as disruptive behavior</em>. Notably, that includes all the pre-written adventure paths WotC has published, at least as they are traditionally approached. (True, it’s possible to use the published adventures as a framework to run a semi-sandbox where pursuing such goals would be appropriate, but to my understanding and experience that’s not the usual way they are run.) For example, if you’re trying to take table time to meet with vast numbers of NPCs and organize a network of spies to find the Lost Mines of Phandelver, you’re probably going to annoy a random gaming group playing that adventure. The same will be true in many home campaigns where the focus (or the means intended to be employed to accomplish the goal) is adventuring.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>(Emphasis added.) Are you truly arguing that D&D doesn’t support the types of campaigns I’ve described where investment in one’s adventuring proficiency would be a rational choice? Even though all the WotC-published adventures fall into that category? And you believe that strongly enough--despite the evidence to the contrary--to be willing to condemn [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] for wanting to accomodate two players who prefer that type of game?</p><p></p><p>I entirely disagree. Default 5e removed the ability of players to invest gold into improving one’s adventuring abilities. But, as evidenced by the published adventurers, the new edition certainly did not remove D&D’s support for the types of campaigns where such investment is a rational choice. That’s the crux of the problem that leads threads like this to be a common refrain. Sure, in campaigns like the ones you prefer there isn’t a problem, but that doesn’t mean that everyone who has different preferences than you do is running their campaign wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In the context of D&D, these are all Combat-as-War resources. They don’t matter in any campaign with a Combat-as-Sport style, because using them to overcome the opposition would be outside the intended scope of the encounter. (It’s certainly possible to design a system where the resources you mention are instead Combat-as-Sport resources. D&D isn’t that system.) So you’re right that 5e does still have the indirect ability to invest in one’s adventuring ability via these resources, but <em>only</em> in campaigns with a Combat-as-War element.</p><p></p><p>Ironically, as I understand it, part of the reason 5e removed the ability to purchase magic items was because they were no longer an assumed part of encounter balance. But detailed encounter balance is primarily a Combat-as-Sport concern! So, to maintain the system’s suitability for Combat-as-Sport, they created a game where the only way to invest gold in one’s adventuring ability is in Combat-as-War resources…. Whoops?</p><p></p><p>In the end, the problem of a lack of things to spend money on only applies to campaigns <em>with</em> a focus (or at least emphasis) on adventuring and <em>without</em> a strong Combat-as-War element. If that was a rare combination, you might be on solid ground claiming that it isn’t really a problem. But far from being rare, based on personal observation of games and conversations about games, the combination is <em>extremely</em> common. It might even cover a plurality (or even a majority?) of campaigns. A problem facing such a common playstyle is a problem worth addressing.</p><p> </p><p>(For those unfamiliar with the CaW/CaS terminology, see <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?317715-Very-Long-Combat-as-Sport-vs-Combat-as-War-a-Key-Difference-in-D-amp-D-Play-Styles" target="_blank">here</a>.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Xetheral, post: 6983184, member: 6802765"] If the [i]point[/i] of a given campaign is to adventure, then investment in adventuring makes perfectly good sense. This is true no matter whether it’s a player-driven campaign with adventure-seeking characters or a DM-driven campaign about adventuring. It’s [b]identical[/b] to a modern business owner doing business to get money so that they can grow their business to get more money to grow their business (including the diversity of potential motivations for starting/continuing on the treadmill). Even if a given campaign isn’t specifically [i]about[/i] adventuring, many alternative focuses (including such stalwarts as “saving the world”, “defenders of the realm”, “retrieve the macguffin”) assume that adventuring will be the primary means employed to accomplish the objectives, which likewise makes investment in adventuring perfectly reasonable. So a player doesn’t necessarily have to be motivated primarily by gamist impulses to have their character rationally want to invest gold on becoming a better adventurer. Awesome! Those are the kinds of games and characters I most enjoy too! But pursuing those types of goals isn’t appropriate in all campaigns—in many of them, [i]it would qualify as disruptive behavior[/i]. Notably, that includes all the pre-written adventure paths WotC has published, at least as they are traditionally approached. (True, it’s possible to use the published adventures as a framework to run a semi-sandbox where pursuing such goals would be appropriate, but to my understanding and experience that’s not the usual way they are run.) For example, if you’re trying to take table time to meet with vast numbers of NPCs and organize a network of spies to find the Lost Mines of Phandelver, you’re probably going to annoy a random gaming group playing that adventure. The same will be true in many home campaigns where the focus (or the means intended to be employed to accomplish the goal) is adventuring. (Emphasis added.) Are you truly arguing that D&D doesn’t support the types of campaigns I’ve described where investment in one’s adventuring proficiency would be a rational choice? Even though all the WotC-published adventures fall into that category? And you believe that strongly enough--despite the evidence to the contrary--to be willing to condemn [MENTION=413]Uller[/MENTION] for wanting to accomodate two players who prefer that type of game? I entirely disagree. Default 5e removed the ability of players to invest gold into improving one’s adventuring abilities. But, as evidenced by the published adventurers, the new edition certainly did not remove D&D’s support for the types of campaigns where such investment is a rational choice. That’s the crux of the problem that leads threads like this to be a common refrain. Sure, in campaigns like the ones you prefer there isn’t a problem, but that doesn’t mean that everyone who has different preferences than you do is running their campaign wrong. In the context of D&D, these are all Combat-as-War resources. They don’t matter in any campaign with a Combat-as-Sport style, because using them to overcome the opposition would be outside the intended scope of the encounter. (It’s certainly possible to design a system where the resources you mention are instead Combat-as-Sport resources. D&D isn’t that system.) So you’re right that 5e does still have the indirect ability to invest in one’s adventuring ability via these resources, but [i]only[/i] in campaigns with a Combat-as-War element. Ironically, as I understand it, part of the reason 5e removed the ability to purchase magic items was because they were no longer an assumed part of encounter balance. But detailed encounter balance is primarily a Combat-as-Sport concern! So, to maintain the system’s suitability for Combat-as-Sport, they created a game where the only way to invest gold in one’s adventuring ability is in Combat-as-War resources…. Whoops? In the end, the problem of a lack of things to spend money on only applies to campaigns [i]with[/i] a focus (or at least emphasis) on adventuring and [i]without[/i] a strong Combat-as-War element. If that was a rare combination, you might be on solid ground claiming that it isn’t really a problem. But far from being rare, based on personal observation of games and conversations about games, the combination is [i]extremely[/i] common. It might even cover a plurality (or even a majority?) of campaigns. A problem facing such a common playstyle is a problem worth addressing. (For those unfamiliar with the CaW/CaS terminology, see [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?317715-Very-Long-Combat-as-Sport-vs-Combat-as-War-a-Key-Difference-in-D-amp-D-Play-Styles]here[/url].) [/QUOTE]
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