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In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7002082" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>Because for some of us, that "perfectly good outlet" isn't.</p><p></p><p>I looked at the document Saidoro put together about "sane" magical item prices mentioned elsewhere in the thread, here it is: <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/view" target="_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/view</a>)</p><p></p><p>For you, the idea that you kill things, get treasure, and buy stuff to make you better at killing things is one style of playing, but it ignores a lot of other things. If you read Saidoro's posts (here: <a href="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices" target="_blank">http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices</a>) it's clear that what "shattered his mind" is that an item that is "less good" costs much more than one that is much better.</p><p></p><p>Even in today's world there are examples of this, but the concept of magic item sales, and "sane" prices doesn't make sense in my Forgotten Realms at all, and really doesn't for most D&D worlds. "Sane balanced" prices requires a supply consistent enough to meet demand and that the cost of manufacture can support. Volume discounts only come into play if scaling up quantity reduces the cost-per-item of manufacture.</p><p></p><p>Magic items are rare. More importantly, most of the population are not adventurers. What an adventurer finds useful won't be the same as your typical farmer. His post starts with a commentary on flying items. Sure, flying would be cool and all, but it doesn't plow the fields, or forge horseshoes, or clean the living room, or cook dinner, or provide light or heat, or all of the mundane things that would be most beneficial to the average person.</p><p></p><p>That also assumes that the economy actually pays the average person in coin, and enough of it to spend on things like a magical plow rather than horses or oxen, which are also useful for other things. And that assumes that creating such magical items is easy enough to make them readily available at a reasonable price.</p><p></p><p>Magic items that <em>are</em> beneficial from a combat standpoint, and can be made relatively easy, will be kept by those that know the secret away from others if at all possible. Why? If it's a villain, it gives them an advantage. If not, it's most likely to be developed militarily which also works best if you have the capability and your enemies don't. Wars very well might be fought over the secrets of crafting certain items if it's easy enough to do that you could open up shop just like a blacksmith.</p><p></p><p>The reality is, the price of a magic item is entirely supply and demand. Rules that actually set prices based their capabilities only bear no relationship to what would be a reasonable price in the game-world. The Forgotten Realms has had for some time the idea that you can potentially shop for magic items. The Red Wizards have set up enclaves to sell the most common magic items, and although a specific list has never been outlined, the list would be pretty small. For one, they have no interest in equipping their enemies. They do use it as sort of a "diplomatic" approach to improve the general populace outlook toward them, but their ultimate goals are probably more about espionage and staging pockets of power in regions they one day hope to control.</p><p></p><p>Otherwise, traveling merchants or oddity shops might have magic items. With the 5e rules, any merchant can spend an hour with an item and know exactly what it does. I prefer the requirement for research (sages and such) or a spell, although a merchant that deals with items like these on a regular basis will probably have access to such a spell. But in a given town, their might be a few dozen magic items available, if that. And other than weapons or armor that give a straight bonus (or healing potions), most of those items available will all do different things. You want to be able to fly? Then you may have one option, that potion of healing that Grenelda has at her shop. 10,000 gp seems steep, but what choice do you have? Either you get to fly, or you don't.</p><p></p><p>I have a friend who had a shop with a set of 3 books for sale. It was a small press, very limited single run. He priced them at $450 when he first got them, and even when closing his store, he never changed the price. Many, many people wanted to buy them, but didn't want to pay the price. Of course, they always told him he'd never sell them at that price. But they were wrong, it was just a matter of waiting for somebody who wanted them enough that they were willing to pay that. The fact that his store was closing probably had an impact as well. But imagine a traveling merchant that will be leaving town tomorrow, and won't be back for a year. The chances they will still have that wand of fireballs (with 9 non-replenishing charges left) is pretty slim. Either you buy it or you don't. He doesn't care if you don't think it's worth 75,000 gp. Somebody will.</p><p></p><p>More importantly, this also becomes irrelevant in the context of most games. Why? Because your party will have an excess of treasure and no place <em>else</em> to spend it. If you don't account for the rest of life - monthly expenses, family, and the frivolous way that most people who come into large amounts of money quickly - then all of the treasure they have found will still be available. And for all practical purposes, useless otherwise. The price becomes irrelevant, other than the players wanting to be able to get more stuff with it.</p><p></p><p>So, no, I don't think we had a "perfectly good outlet for all the gold" with magic item sales. In fact, in a campaign that actually focuses on the world and the impact such a concept has on it, it's a very bad outlet. It would change the nature of the world significantly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is simple. Because it's not a headache at all. At least not to me. Not one iota. In fact, it has never crossed my mind. Ever. I suspect that's the same for many others as well. Start a poll: Does not having magic item shops in 5e give you a headache? </p><p></p><p>Second, it is supported, the game gives a general guideline for prices. If you don't like the way they've currently supported it, and you're an ex-3.5e player, the general approach to selling magic items hasn't changed a bit. If you don't like the DMG pricing scheme, use the 3.5e one, or Saidoro's list, or something different.</p><p></p><p>If magic items is the only thing that's "worthwhile to spend their gold on" then it's the <em>only</em> thing for them to spend their gold on in your campaign. If that's the case, then it's not fun (at least not to me). That means that the only option after an adventure is to pick through the magic item list and "spend" your gold? That's about the most boring thing I've heard. It sounds like the "characters" exist primarily as a bunch of stats on a piece of paper, and you're looking only at trying to improve those stats. </p><p></p><p>I prefer characters that have, well, character. They have a place in the world, they have likes, dislikes, hobbies, or things they like to spend their money on. Like an adventure, fun is generally enabled by choices, and particularly meaningful choices. Like I have 350 gp to spend, and I could help my family cover the expenses of their farm after the hill giant attack destroyed 40% of their crops, or I can go carousing, take a trip to Waterdeep (I've never seen the city), or purchase this potion of healing. Decisions, decisions. I can probably help the family and still have some money for carousing. </p><p></p><p>Your implication here is that there's a big problem that all DMs have because of the way 5e has chosen to address magic item sales. The fact is, for many people (I would guess a majority), it's not an issue at all.</p><p></p><p>The standard used to be (until 3e) that you can't buy magic items. You had to find them. That's actually a pretty exciting approach to something like magic items, because it makes finding them a bigger deal. Think about it, you just had a fight with a bunch of orcs, and they were wearing leather or chainmail armor, with spears, hand axes, or scimitars. Altogether there are 6 sets of armor, and about a dozen weapons. How exciting is that? Probably not much, because you already have what you need, or you can just buy them if you don't. No, the only thing that's of interest is the <em>potion of fire resistance</em> that the leader had.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7002082, member: 6778044"] Because for some of us, that "perfectly good outlet" isn't. I looked at the document Saidoro put together about "sane" magical item prices mentioned elsewhere in the thread, here it is: [url]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/view[/url]) For you, the idea that you kill things, get treasure, and buy stuff to make you better at killing things is one style of playing, but it ignores a lot of other things. If you read Saidoro's posts (here: [url]http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices[/url]) it's clear that what "shattered his mind" is that an item that is "less good" costs much more than one that is much better. Even in today's world there are examples of this, but the concept of magic item sales, and "sane" prices doesn't make sense in my Forgotten Realms at all, and really doesn't for most D&D worlds. "Sane balanced" prices requires a supply consistent enough to meet demand and that the cost of manufacture can support. Volume discounts only come into play if scaling up quantity reduces the cost-per-item of manufacture. Magic items are rare. More importantly, most of the population are not adventurers. What an adventurer finds useful won't be the same as your typical farmer. His post starts with a commentary on flying items. Sure, flying would be cool and all, but it doesn't plow the fields, or forge horseshoes, or clean the living room, or cook dinner, or provide light or heat, or all of the mundane things that would be most beneficial to the average person. That also assumes that the economy actually pays the average person in coin, and enough of it to spend on things like a magical plow rather than horses or oxen, which are also useful for other things. And that assumes that creating such magical items is easy enough to make them readily available at a reasonable price. Magic items that [I]are[/I] beneficial from a combat standpoint, and can be made relatively easy, will be kept by those that know the secret away from others if at all possible. Why? If it's a villain, it gives them an advantage. If not, it's most likely to be developed militarily which also works best if you have the capability and your enemies don't. Wars very well might be fought over the secrets of crafting certain items if it's easy enough to do that you could open up shop just like a blacksmith. The reality is, the price of a magic item is entirely supply and demand. Rules that actually set prices based their capabilities only bear no relationship to what would be a reasonable price in the game-world. The Forgotten Realms has had for some time the idea that you can potentially shop for magic items. The Red Wizards have set up enclaves to sell the most common magic items, and although a specific list has never been outlined, the list would be pretty small. For one, they have no interest in equipping their enemies. They do use it as sort of a "diplomatic" approach to improve the general populace outlook toward them, but their ultimate goals are probably more about espionage and staging pockets of power in regions they one day hope to control. Otherwise, traveling merchants or oddity shops might have magic items. With the 5e rules, any merchant can spend an hour with an item and know exactly what it does. I prefer the requirement for research (sages and such) or a spell, although a merchant that deals with items like these on a regular basis will probably have access to such a spell. But in a given town, their might be a few dozen magic items available, if that. And other than weapons or armor that give a straight bonus (or healing potions), most of those items available will all do different things. You want to be able to fly? Then you may have one option, that potion of healing that Grenelda has at her shop. 10,000 gp seems steep, but what choice do you have? Either you get to fly, or you don't. I have a friend who had a shop with a set of 3 books for sale. It was a small press, very limited single run. He priced them at $450 when he first got them, and even when closing his store, he never changed the price. Many, many people wanted to buy them, but didn't want to pay the price. Of course, they always told him he'd never sell them at that price. But they were wrong, it was just a matter of waiting for somebody who wanted them enough that they were willing to pay that. The fact that his store was closing probably had an impact as well. But imagine a traveling merchant that will be leaving town tomorrow, and won't be back for a year. The chances they will still have that wand of fireballs (with 9 non-replenishing charges left) is pretty slim. Either you buy it or you don't. He doesn't care if you don't think it's worth 75,000 gp. Somebody will. More importantly, this also becomes irrelevant in the context of most games. Why? Because your party will have an excess of treasure and no place [I]else[/I] to spend it. If you don't account for the rest of life - monthly expenses, family, and the frivolous way that most people who come into large amounts of money quickly - then all of the treasure they have found will still be available. And for all practical purposes, useless otherwise. The price becomes irrelevant, other than the players wanting to be able to get more stuff with it. So, no, I don't think we had a "perfectly good outlet for all the gold" with magic item sales. In fact, in a campaign that actually focuses on the world and the impact such a concept has on it, it's a very bad outlet. It would change the nature of the world significantly. This is simple. Because it's not a headache at all. At least not to me. Not one iota. In fact, it has never crossed my mind. Ever. I suspect that's the same for many others as well. Start a poll: Does not having magic item shops in 5e give you a headache? Second, it is supported, the game gives a general guideline for prices. If you don't like the way they've currently supported it, and you're an ex-3.5e player, the general approach to selling magic items hasn't changed a bit. If you don't like the DMG pricing scheme, use the 3.5e one, or Saidoro's list, or something different. If magic items is the only thing that's "worthwhile to spend their gold on" then it's the [I]only[/I] thing for them to spend their gold on in your campaign. If that's the case, then it's not fun (at least not to me). That means that the only option after an adventure is to pick through the magic item list and "spend" your gold? That's about the most boring thing I've heard. It sounds like the "characters" exist primarily as a bunch of stats on a piece of paper, and you're looking only at trying to improve those stats. I prefer characters that have, well, character. They have a place in the world, they have likes, dislikes, hobbies, or things they like to spend their money on. Like an adventure, fun is generally enabled by choices, and particularly meaningful choices. Like I have 350 gp to spend, and I could help my family cover the expenses of their farm after the hill giant attack destroyed 40% of their crops, or I can go carousing, take a trip to Waterdeep (I've never seen the city), or purchase this potion of healing. Decisions, decisions. I can probably help the family and still have some money for carousing. Your implication here is that there's a big problem that all DMs have because of the way 5e has chosen to address magic item sales. The fact is, for many people (I would guess a majority), it's not an issue at all. The standard used to be (until 3e) that you can't buy magic items. You had to find them. That's actually a pretty exciting approach to something like magic items, because it makes finding them a bigger deal. Think about it, you just had a fight with a bunch of orcs, and they were wearing leather or chainmail armor, with spears, hand axes, or scimitars. Altogether there are 6 sets of armor, and about a dozen weapons. How exciting is that? Probably not much, because you already have what you need, or you can just buy them if you don't. No, the only thing that's of interest is the [I]potion of fire resistance[/I] that the leader had. [/QUOTE]
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