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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hairfoot" data-source="post: 2575163" data-attributes="member: 23732">Thanks for the excellent discussion, all.  Even searing criticism is bearable when it's articulate.It sounds heretical, I know, but enjoy challenges with a more mortal scope.  I feel that late-level progression is largely an illusion, and detracts from a broadly-challenging game.  I'm not excited by climbing levels just to fight something with bigger numbers and a cool picture in the MM.I'm pleased with the combat and skills rules in 3.5, but I find that the rapid power progression makes them redundant fairly quickly.  Who bullrushes an opponent at level 12?  Not many.  Any character who could make an effective bullrush is better off trying to score hitpoint damage.Consider this: the PCs have to infiltrate a fort and kill the command group inside (who have an appropriate CR).  However, the fort is guarded by a black dragon, which the PCs have no chance of defeating.  The challenge is to get past the dragon and take on the foes inside, some of whom will be numerous and weaker than the PCs and some on an equal footing, then get out alive.  That done, the PCs can come back with the assistance of a flight of griffin-riders to help with the dragon.Many players I've known would have an aneurism in this situation, because they're being faced with an opponent they can't overcome through violence and they're reliant on non-combat skills and planning to avoid catastrophe.  That type of mission is rare, because the goal is not to find the most powerful foe and kill it - which is what most D&D is about.Think of some other mission objectives:1. Fight a running battle with more powerful opponents to distract and lure them away while an NPC carries out the real mission2. Run a sapping operation under an enemy's castle over the course of a week, keeping it hidden from the guards and discreetly killing any who find you without raising the alarm3. Escort a dangerous prisoner to a destination while fending off attacks and ambushes from would-be liberatorsThese are complex, military-style missions which test the aptitude of players and require the specialities of all classes.  But high-level characters would never do these things, because:1. Hero-players often rile against someone else doing the important stuff2. Why sap?  We're heroes.  If we want a castle, we teleport in and fight until we win it.3. A 17th level prisoner doesn't travel by caravan - he's ported straight to where he's going.Basically, the pay-off in higher levels is increased damage-dealing and the ability to ignore the limitations of being mortal.  With that, you put yourself beyond multi-tasked missions.  There's an argument to be made that high-level characters have as many, or more, options and challenges becasue they join a higher league of NPCs and monsters who also have those abilities.  However, I find that high-end games often turn into a cartoonish arms race, with PCs and enemies vying to pull out bigger and better spells, weapons, and abilities to stack the numbers and win the day.A lot of these complaints are really about player attitudes, not the game of D&D.  But I do find that the power curve makes a group more and more reliant on their RAW abilities than their ingenuity.</blockquote>

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