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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5955983" data-attributes="member: 22779">Umm, just as a point, the only edition where 1st level clerics didn't get spells was OD&amp;D and Basic.&nbsp; I'm not sure if that changed in Rules Cyclopedia, I didn't play those rules.&nbsp; But an AD&amp;D cleric got at least 1 first level spell and with even a minimal Wis (13 I believe) got 3.And when were rangers an optional class?&nbsp; They weren't in 1e.&nbsp; They were a subclass of fighters and I think you're the first person I've ever heard complain that rangers were broken.I'd point out that a 0 level commoner doesn't really exist in 4e.&nbsp; Anyone who isn't going to get into combat doesn't even get stats.&nbsp; He just dies if you really want to kill him.&nbsp; If the PC's are actually going to mix it up, then we go into encounter design.&nbsp; So, no, a wizard will actually die pretty quickly vs a reasonable number of Human Rabble.&nbsp; I don't know why you need hyperbole, but, 4e characters do not have that much more HP at 1st level.&nbsp; Somewhere in the neighbourhood, depending on class between 20 and 35 at 1st level. Which is certainly not 28 times as much.&nbsp; And, isn't a whole lot more than some AD&amp;D classes got out of the gate.Look, I get you don't like 4e.&nbsp; But, you really don't have to start making things up to show your point.&nbsp; At least if you're going to criticise editions, take the thirty seconds to actually look up the rules beforehand.&nbsp; It makes conversation work so much easier because we don't have to spend a bajillion pages screwing around trying to correct each other.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5955983, member: 22779"] Umm, just as a point, the only edition where 1st level clerics didn't get spells was OD&D and Basic. I'm not sure if that changed in Rules Cyclopedia, I didn't play those rules. But an AD&D cleric got at least 1 first level spell and with even a minimal Wis (13 I believe) got 3. And when were rangers an optional class? They weren't in 1e. They were a subclass of fighters and I think you're the first person I've ever heard complain that rangers were broken. I'd point out that a 0 level commoner doesn't really exist in 4e. Anyone who isn't going to get into combat doesn't even get stats. He just dies if you really want to kill him. If the PC's are actually going to mix it up, then we go into encounter design. So, no, a wizard will actually die pretty quickly vs a reasonable number of Human Rabble. I don't know why you need hyperbole, but, 4e characters do not have that much more HP at 1st level. Somewhere in the neighbourhood, depending on class between 20 and 35 at 1st level. Which is certainly not 28 times as much. And, isn't a whole lot more than some AD&D classes got out of the gate. Look, I get you don't like 4e. But, you really don't have to start making things up to show your point. At least if you're going to criticise editions, take the thirty seconds to actually look up the rules beforehand. It makes conversation work so much easier because we don't have to spend a bajillion pages screwing around trying to correct each other. [/QUOTE]

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