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<blockquote data-quote="kigmatzomat" data-source="post: 3410342" data-attributes="member: 9254">My players both lose and die, not always at the same time.&nbsp; A lot of times they redefine &quot;lost&quot; as &quot;incomplete victory&quot; though.&nbsp; For instance, a goblin horde led by demon-worshiping priests invade a region.&nbsp; The party warns several nearby manors, prevents at least two manors from being overrun, and stops a plague the goblins had infected the survivors with.&nbsp; The goblins loot much of the countryside, inflict serious wounds on many of the defenders, and manage to utterly plunder one estate.&nbsp; Who won?&nbsp; The goblins got less loot than they would have without the players but they still got a great haul, far more than any past attempts.&nbsp; The players stopped the goblin invasion.&nbsp; There was a lot of property damage, hundreds of peasants were taken as slaves (some sacrificed to the demons), and several score of guards were cut down in the defense.&nbsp; Hard to say you &quot;won&quot; that, even if you didn't &quot;lose.&quot;&nbsp; They refuse to acknowledge their responsibility in a godling getting loose from his prison causing a massive influx of undead across the planet.&nbsp;&nbsp; That, in my book, is a &quot;lose.&quot;&nbsp; When an entire country comes under the control of liches &amp; vampires, that's a lose.&nbsp; When martial law is declared planet wide for nearly two years while the militias deal with the 10,000-strong mobs of zombies, skeletons, and ghouls, that qualifies as a &quot;lose.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; When necropoli literally become &quot;cities of the dead&quot; requiring military cordons, you've got a &quot;lose.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="kigmatzomat, post: 3410342, member: 9254"] My players both lose and die, not always at the same time. A lot of times they redefine "lost" as "incomplete victory" though. For instance, a goblin horde led by demon-worshiping priests invade a region. The party warns several nearby manors, prevents at least two manors from being overrun, and stops a plague the goblins had infected the survivors with. The goblins loot much of the countryside, inflict serious wounds on many of the defenders, and manage to utterly plunder one estate. Who won? The goblins got less loot than they would have without the players but they still got a great haul, far more than any past attempts. The players stopped the goblin invasion. There was a lot of property damage, hundreds of peasants were taken as slaves (some sacrificed to the demons), and several score of guards were cut down in the defense. Hard to say you "won" that, even if you didn't "lose." They refuse to acknowledge their responsibility in a godling getting loose from his prison causing a massive influx of undead across the planet. That, in my book, is a "lose." When an entire country comes under the control of liches & vampires, that's a lose. When martial law is declared planet wide for nearly two years while the militias deal with the 10,000-strong mobs of zombies, skeletons, and ghouls, that qualifies as a "lose." When necropoli literally become "cities of the dead" requiring military cordons, you've got a "lose." [/QUOTE]

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