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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Caliburn101" data-source="post: 7589573" data-attributes="member: 6802178">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6919838" target="_blank">5ekyu</a>I note that you sidestepped the entire point of my post and didn't answer any of the situational conflicts the RAW give rise to - concentrating on the only element of your argument that is on solid ground.Let me make one last appeal to you to answer on the many exceptions to the way in which the rule is supposed to work, but doesn't.The definition (insofar as it goes...) of the Trait is not the problem. The extremely limited scope of the Incorporeal Trait is. It cannot be utilised at the table as written in any of the circumstances I have described without houseruling.It cannot.Therefore a DM is forced to rule what incorporeal means at their table - making the issue of whether they can carry things and if they can under what restrictions and circumstances a necessary consideration for any DM.What incorporeal means at one table differs from another - there being a suite of different answers to the various interactions with solid objects such monster will make as the DM sees it.I have already encountered this - and it is plainly because the Trait is very poorly thought out.If you don't think so - then list the various interactions which can reasonably occur between solid objects and a monster using Incorporeal Movement and quote me the rules telling the DM how that plays out.It is my firm contention that no such rules exist, and so the issue of carrying physical items for a monster with this Trait is far from answered in the neat and simplistic way you claim.Anyway - I am off to create an encounter with a bunch of Wraiths in adamantine full plate who specialise in grappling PCs and dropping them inside walls forcing them to take the force damage listed. Although hang on, I might create some spiked walls and have my not solid/solid Shadows in the following encounter push the PCs into the spiked walls by body-checking them - adding some heavy piercing to their normal attacks. Of course the Shadows won't take any damage as they will be passing through the spikes... Maybe a phalanx of Ghosts with shields could follow using long spears attacking through an iron gate (they moved this turn... )and then a Banshee holding a megaphone to increase the DC and range of her scream will finish them off. There is so much abusive fun one can have with solid/not-solid enemies - such as a Spectre reaching through a wall to Disarm a PC and then the Spectre next to them picking up the weapon and disappearing through the wall with it leaving the PC disarmed and helpless on the wrong side of a 20ft think stone wall. I think I might also have a Wraith reach out of a wall against a Fighter with Riposte to claw at them and force Disadvantage on the riposte because there is only an arm to attack (not the whole creature), or maybe attacks out of a wall where the Ghosts responsible don't suffer AoO moving in, attack and moving out because they are inside a wall and the AoO cannot hit them.Nasty...Yep - all of these scenarios are allowed in the are solid/aren't solid Incorporeal Movement version of the RAW... but pull much of that crapola on players and see how fast they demand some reasonable house rules be created for the game...The Trait is busted and doesn't define anything close to what it needs to do to work properly.</blockquote>

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