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<blockquote data-quote="SuedodeuS" data-source="post: 3561690" data-attributes="member: 52554">That would probably be a pretty good system to implement.&nbsp; To tell you the truth, the use-or-lose system I came up with is more an attempt at realism than balance (although I suppose it does make the balance closer to the status quo than the other system).&nbsp; An additional penalty after the first attack might be a good idea, but too large of one might make it so that only the first one or two have a chance (without a natural 20) of hitting.&nbsp; It would probably need some playtesting.Yeah, this is definately a must.&nbsp; Imagine a barbarian with Great Cleave, a trait or feat that adds an additional 10 ft movement rate, and some magical boots to double his land speed.&nbsp; Hell, a monk with Great Cleave would wreck some serious carnage without the caveat of it only being used against an immediately adjacent enemy.&nbsp; Personally, I might allow the character to move up to 5 feet before using the extra attack, but that would be at a maximum.Oh, and back to the Spring Attack thing from earlier (whether it should work on the first enemy or all of them).&nbsp; I decided to crunch the numbers to see what I got.&nbsp; The situation is this - a character with mobility is running past and attacking four enemies.&nbsp; The enemies have to get a natural 13 or better to hit the character normally, but since he's using mobility it is instead a natural 17 or better (20% chance).[CODE]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobility&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Mobility+Spring AttackTimes hit&nbsp; &nbsp; % chance&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Times hit&nbsp; &nbsp; % chance0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 40.96&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 51.21&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 40.96&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 38.42&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15.36&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 9.63&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2.56&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0.84&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0.16x&gt;0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 59.04&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; x&gt;0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 48.8[/CODE]This is assuming the Spring Attack feat only works on the first enemy.&nbsp; x&gt;0 indicates the probability that you'll get hit at least once.&nbsp; Personally, I don't think that a feat should knock a probability like this down from ~59% to 0.00%.&nbsp; Now, a knockdown from ~59% to ~49% is pretty decent, probably good enough to warrant a feat.&nbsp; I'd say limit the Spring Attack to the first target, and maybe have another feat (Improved Spring Attack, maybe) that lets you ignore any additional targets.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="SuedodeuS, post: 3561690, member: 52554"] That would probably be a pretty good system to implement. To tell you the truth, the use-or-lose system I came up with is more an attempt at realism than balance (although I suppose it does make the balance closer to the status quo than the other system). An additional penalty after the first attack might be a good idea, but too large of one might make it so that only the first one or two have a chance (without a natural 20) of hitting. It would probably need some playtesting. Yeah, this is definately a must. Imagine a barbarian with Great Cleave, a trait or feat that adds an additional 10 ft movement rate, and some magical boots to double his land speed. Hell, a monk with Great Cleave would wreck some serious carnage without the caveat of it only being used against an immediately adjacent enemy. Personally, I might allow the character to move up to 5 feet before using the extra attack, but that would be at a maximum. Oh, and back to the Spring Attack thing from earlier (whether it should work on the first enemy or all of them). I decided to crunch the numbers to see what I got. The situation is this - a character with mobility is running past and attacking four enemies. The enemies have to get a natural 13 or better to hit the character normally, but since he's using mobility it is instead a natural 17 or better (20% chance). [CODE] Mobility Mobility+Spring Attack Times hit % chance Times hit % chance 0 40.96 0 51.2 1 40.96 1 38.4 2 15.36 2 9.6 3 2.56 3 0.8 4 0.16 x>0 59.04 x>0 48.8[/CODE] This is assuming the Spring Attack feat only works on the first enemy. x>0 indicates the probability that you'll get hit at least once. Personally, I don't think that a feat should knock a probability like this down from ~59% to 0.00%. Now, a knockdown from ~59% to ~49% is pretty decent, probably good enough to warrant a feat. I'd say limit the Spring Attack to the first target, and maybe have another feat (Improved Spring Attack, maybe) that lets you ignore any additional targets. [/QUOTE]

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