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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6739873" data-attributes="member: 12731">My point is that when you're frustrated because your spell doesn't stick, you probably don't want to consider the situation when the spell is used against you. That may be now, or it may be never, but Falling Icicle's reply still amounts to changing the subject.You start your reply with "That may be" but hold it there. Is it or is it not?That, I believe, is what the poster wants to discuss.And your post is just another example of the reluctance to discuss the overall issue, namely "has save or suck spells been nerfed a bit too hard?"The fact you don't want one of those spells in your own face is kind of beside the issue. You may be saying "I don't want to strengthen these spells because I don't want to suck myself" but what you aren't doing then is discussing the topic, which is "if save or suck spells are weakish, why should I use them? Why not use damage spells or summon spells or whatever instead?"To take this to the really interesting part straight away:How far can you take this? How much can you cater to players disliking the "suck" part of these spells before the players abandon them for their own use?Moreover, what this discussion is saying is "hold person isn't really a save or suck spell anymore, it is a damage dealing spell".So the question the becomes: since defeating monsters by other means than whittling down their hp is inherently unbalanced, has D&D finally removed the option to truly bypass the hp pool as a means to defeat your targets (including player characters)?</blockquote>

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