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Indie Games Are Not More Focused. They Are Differently Focused.
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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 8312111" data-attributes="member: 6704184"><p>I would say that what I responded to does preclude what I'm saying, because "I think a lot of the “variety” that D&D allows is more perceived than actual. Like playing in Ebberon versus Dark Sun. Sure, the settings are different, but the game will largely flow the same way." does actually suggest that those of us who disagree are wrong about our own experiences, only "percieving" dnd to produce varied results. Nope. DnD does produce varied results, and I know that from direct personal experience both with dnd and with a decent number of other games. (I am reluctant to say many, in a world of thousands upon thousands of TTRPGs, ranging from DnD clones to one-page games with basically a dice mechanic and a description of the play loop.)</p><p></p><p>As Umbran pointed out, I never said you could. I have never made any claim like that. What 5e DnD can do is emulate a wide array of <em>genres</em> and a decently wide array of <em>playstyles</em>, broadening out even more when you are willing to use optional rules and supplementary materials. I have also claimed, elsewhere, that DnD remains DnD even if you put it in a modern urban setting and play supernatural cops, or put it in space and treat light space craft like starfighters/interceptors as big magic flying armor mechanically rather than like vehicles as such, and then use lightly modified ship combat rules for space ships. Very little else needs to change to play a team of explorers, the elite squadron of a defensive force patroling the border world between the free people republic and the evil empire, or something like a mix between Jedi and the Galaxy Rangers.</p><p></p><p>Some playstyles need more work than others, but generally when I see people talking about wanting something similar to Blades in The Dark, but not focused on criminal Scores, or whatever, people tell them to use Blades as inspiration to <em>make a purpose built game</em>, while with DnD people suggest houserules or 3pp additions (outside of the inevitable "play this game that doesn't do half of what you want because it is built specifically to do the one thing you're trying to add to DnD, because I've entirely missed the point" replies).</p><p></p><p>Exactly, but I'm used to what I did say being misinterpreted, regadless of how many different ways I try to say it.</p><p></p><p>DnD isn't especially structured, though. It certainly doesn't have a strongly prescribed mode of play. What it does prescribe is how to resolve things that players try to do, and that's most of it.</p><p></p><p>Is that a rule? Where? Am I suddenly not playing DnD if my PCs are all disparate individuals from different factions all pulled into a situation, with cross purposes and varying goals and methodologies?</p><p></p><p>Is there a rule about violence? And most games have an increase in abilities of some kind. I'd hardly call that a significant or strong prescription of play.</p><p></p><p>It is, though. You can ignore the rules if you want, but see below on that. Those are two branches of the discussions, not one. </p><p></p><p>1. DnD is particularly flexible because the actual "play loop" is only prescribed in terms of action resolution, not in terms of what kind of scenes follow a given scene, any sort of narrative structure or order, etc. Many indie games do prescribe those elements. The fact you can deviate if you want to doesn't make them not prescribed, just like I wouldn't claim that dnd's action resolution isn't prescribed just because I modify it from the 5e default in my games to better suite my group. </p><p></p><p>2. DnD is particularly flexible because the community is more accepting of homebrew, houserules, and 3pp supplements, and large swathes of the community consider it outright weird to play RAW. </p><p></p><p>3. DnD is particularly flexible because it contains rather a lot of optional rules and systems that alter the gameplay in significant ways.</p><p></p><p>It's an accurate claim, based on both direct experience and observation of discussion in those games' communities and of actual play/exhibitive online content about the games. I rarely see someone suggest hacks for Blades when someone wants something different in genre or gameplay from it. Instead, I see, "check out forged in the dark, and make a new game that does what you want" or "here is a similar game that does what you want", and much less pushback against those suggestions than I see in the dnd community, because more people expect dnd to have houserules and homebrew and 3pp material.</p><p></p><p>It's very relevant, for all the reasons I've stated.</p><p></p><p>My experience is that it's much more "alive and kicking" in some games than in others, but also that it is directed differently in indie games, which have more of a "make your own indie game" mentality opposed to dnd's "make DnD into the game you want" mentality. So, perhaps "Indie games" as a sweeping whole are collectively more flexible than dnd (or indeed any single game), but any given indie game? Not IME.</p><p></p><p>That there is a typo. My bad. I was responding to the accusation of ignorance, not making such an accusation myself.</p><p></p><p>and in those settings you don't use clerics.</p><p></p><p>That isn't the game, that's the history of adventure fantasy games giving people expectations. This is like blaming VtM when some groups try to play it like a hack and slash adventure game.</p><p></p><p>Not the least miniscule but harder, actually. Trivially easy, in fact. I have found, in 5e and 4e before it, that the Cleric is 100% superfulous to the game on every level. The only reason I haven't excised it from my games is that I don't believe that the GM should do things like that just because they don't like a class. I just don't use clerics unless a player decides to play one, which is rare because most of my players share my dislike for the class. Plenty of Paladins, but Clerics just aren't popular in my group at all.</p><p></p><p>But yeah, the party loses nothing significant when not having a cleric. Bards and Druids heal just as well, and Rangers and Paladins can heal well enough to get by.</p><p></p><p>It takes no work at all. You just don't interpret any of those things as having to do with gods, but instead with either faith, devotion to your community, or whatever else makes sense for your world and story. I know people who run and play clerics entirely as White Mage characters. Their magic comes from within, and from the world (often in a very final fantasy 7 lifestream kind of way), and from their empathy and desire to help others. Divine Intervention is just a massive swell of power that you cannot easily do again if you manage to do it, and that you can't always successfully manage to do. I wish sorcerers had something like that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 8312111, member: 6704184"] I would say that what I responded to does preclude what I'm saying, because "I think a lot of the “variety” that D&D allows is more perceived than actual. Like playing in Ebberon versus Dark Sun. Sure, the settings are different, but the game will largely flow the same way." does actually suggest that those of us who disagree are wrong about our own experiences, only "percieving" dnd to produce varied results. Nope. DnD does produce varied results, and I know that from direct personal experience both with dnd and with a decent number of other games. (I am reluctant to say many, in a world of thousands upon thousands of TTRPGs, ranging from DnD clones to one-page games with basically a dice mechanic and a description of the play loop.) As Umbran pointed out, I never said you could. I have never made any claim like that. What 5e DnD can do is emulate a wide array of [I]genres[/I] and a decently wide array of [I]playstyles[/I], broadening out even more when you are willing to use optional rules and supplementary materials. I have also claimed, elsewhere, that DnD remains DnD even if you put it in a modern urban setting and play supernatural cops, or put it in space and treat light space craft like starfighters/interceptors as big magic flying armor mechanically rather than like vehicles as such, and then use lightly modified ship combat rules for space ships. Very little else needs to change to play a team of explorers, the elite squadron of a defensive force patroling the border world between the free people republic and the evil empire, or something like a mix between Jedi and the Galaxy Rangers. Some playstyles need more work than others, but generally when I see people talking about wanting something similar to Blades in The Dark, but not focused on criminal Scores, or whatever, people tell them to use Blades as inspiration to [I]make a purpose built game[/I], while with DnD people suggest houserules or 3pp additions (outside of the inevitable "play this game that doesn't do half of what you want because it is built specifically to do the one thing you're trying to add to DnD, because I've entirely missed the point" replies). Exactly, but I'm used to what I did say being misinterpreted, regadless of how many different ways I try to say it. DnD isn't especially structured, though. It certainly doesn't have a strongly prescribed mode of play. What it does prescribe is how to resolve things that players try to do, and that's most of it. Is that a rule? Where? Am I suddenly not playing DnD if my PCs are all disparate individuals from different factions all pulled into a situation, with cross purposes and varying goals and methodologies? Is there a rule about violence? And most games have an increase in abilities of some kind. I'd hardly call that a significant or strong prescription of play. It is, though. You can ignore the rules if you want, but see below on that. Those are two branches of the discussions, not one. 1. DnD is particularly flexible because the actual "play loop" is only prescribed in terms of action resolution, not in terms of what kind of scenes follow a given scene, any sort of narrative structure or order, etc. Many indie games do prescribe those elements. The fact you can deviate if you want to doesn't make them not prescribed, just like I wouldn't claim that dnd's action resolution isn't prescribed just because I modify it from the 5e default in my games to better suite my group. 2. DnD is particularly flexible because the community is more accepting of homebrew, houserules, and 3pp supplements, and large swathes of the community consider it outright weird to play RAW. 3. DnD is particularly flexible because it contains rather a lot of optional rules and systems that alter the gameplay in significant ways. It's an accurate claim, based on both direct experience and observation of discussion in those games' communities and of actual play/exhibitive online content about the games. I rarely see someone suggest hacks for Blades when someone wants something different in genre or gameplay from it. Instead, I see, "check out forged in the dark, and make a new game that does what you want" or "here is a similar game that does what you want", and much less pushback against those suggestions than I see in the dnd community, because more people expect dnd to have houserules and homebrew and 3pp material. It's very relevant, for all the reasons I've stated. My experience is that it's much more "alive and kicking" in some games than in others, but also that it is directed differently in indie games, which have more of a "make your own indie game" mentality opposed to dnd's "make DnD into the game you want" mentality. So, perhaps "Indie games" as a sweeping whole are collectively more flexible than dnd (or indeed any single game), but any given indie game? Not IME. That there is a typo. My bad. I was responding to the accusation of ignorance, not making such an accusation myself. and in those settings you don't use clerics. That isn't the game, that's the history of adventure fantasy games giving people expectations. This is like blaming VtM when some groups try to play it like a hack and slash adventure game. Not the least miniscule but harder, actually. Trivially easy, in fact. I have found, in 5e and 4e before it, that the Cleric is 100% superfulous to the game on every level. The only reason I haven't excised it from my games is that I don't believe that the GM should do things like that just because they don't like a class. I just don't use clerics unless a player decides to play one, which is rare because most of my players share my dislike for the class. Plenty of Paladins, but Clerics just aren't popular in my group at all. But yeah, the party loses nothing significant when not having a cleric. Bards and Druids heal just as well, and Rangers and Paladins can heal well enough to get by. It takes no work at all. You just don't interpret any of those things as having to do with gods, but instead with either faith, devotion to your community, or whatever else makes sense for your world and story. I know people who run and play clerics entirely as White Mage characters. Their magic comes from within, and from the world (often in a very final fantasy 7 lifestream kind of way), and from their empathy and desire to help others. Divine Intervention is just a massive swell of power that you cannot easily do again if you manage to do it, and that you can't always successfully manage to do. I wish sorcerers had something like that. [/QUOTE]
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