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<blockquote data-quote="Jay Murphy1" data-source="post: 8312310" data-attributes="member: 6994549">&quot;And even if you have ideal-based clerics, they still use the very divine-flavored cleric spell list. You have spell like Spirit Guardians, Conjure Celestial, Divination, and Guardian of Faith. You have class abilities like Channel Divinity and Divine Intervention. De-goding the cleric would be quite a lot of work.&quot;It is interesting how many players miss the spell creation and spell research rules of D&amp;D and accept the included spell lists as all there is. Very rarely do you see a player or GM take the cleric class at face value and draw the logical conclusion the player is the authority on their beliefs, abilities and reality of being the singular authority of their faith. Everyone just &quot;mails it in&quot;. For example, if a players says they are a Cleric of Ook, the divine manifestation of the Hand, and go on to describe exactly what that means they are realizing the nature of the class; an opportunity to world build unlike any other class in the game. Instead of a player thinking &quot;oh, having someone who can heal and turn undead is a useful utility&quot;, the &quot;what does the party need?&quot; reflex lacking imagination muscle being exercised, the proper exercise of the cleric is to create something truly unique and creating (or interpreting existing) spells through that lens. It is incorrect to label a lack of ability as a flaw in a game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jay Murphy1, post: 8312310, member: 6994549"] "And even if you have ideal-based clerics, they still use the very divine-flavored cleric spell list. You have spell like Spirit Guardians, Conjure Celestial, Divination, and Guardian of Faith. You have class abilities like Channel [B]Divinity[/B] and [B]Divine[/B] Intervention. De-goding the cleric would be quite a lot of work." It is interesting how many players miss the spell creation and spell research rules of D&D and accept the included spell lists as all there is. Very rarely do you see a player or GM take the cleric class at face value and draw the logical conclusion the player is the authority on their beliefs, abilities and reality of being the singular authority of their faith. Everyone just "mails it in". For example, if a players says they are a Cleric of Ook, the divine manifestation of the Hand, and go on to describe exactly what that means they are realizing the nature of the class; an opportunity to world build unlike any other class in the game. Instead of a player thinking "oh, having someone who can heal and turn undead is a useful utility", the "what does the party need?" reflex lacking imagination muscle being exercised, the proper exercise of the cleric is to create something truly unique and creating (or interpreting existing) spells through that lens. It is incorrect to label a lack of ability as a flaw in a game. [/QUOTE]

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