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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8315142" data-attributes="member: 6696971">We're talking about separate things in each of our posts.  And I'm not talking about "immersion" in my post.  That is something I don't do.  So first, what I'm talking about:Having a cognitive state being thrust upon you or being (mundanely) afflicted with something that you would otherwise not wish to have had thrust upon you/been afflicted with.This could be despair or frustration or anxiety or trepidation.  Whatever it is, you're caught in the orbit of something and you don't have the (lets call it) emotional/mental escape velocity to change the relationship of you to thing.This is not performative.  This is a state where you have no veto nor volition to exercise.Very scary delves (Torchbearer is excellent at this) done right can do a fantastic job with trepidation and anxiety and sometimes despair and frustration.  However, this is different from Dogs in the Vineyard where the traumatic/complicating features of your Traits and Relationships collide with combustible conflicts that are waiting to turn into outright conflagrations (and you're dutybound to confront them so there is no out).  (i) When you deploy a Trait or a Relationship w/ a d4 attached to it (even if that isn't the only die) AND the conflict escalates to lethal violence, you're very likely to endure Long-term Fallout where your character erodes out from underneath you.  (ii) Further, the conflict resolution mechanics are meant to test you in a "how far are you willing to go to see this through" kind of way whereby, there are going to be a lot of conflicts that force you to escalate from "just talking" to "violence" because of the forces arrayed against you + the way the dice have fallen.  (i) and (ii) combine to create a very particular "caught in the orbit of something beyond you" sensation to play that is akin to Amygdala Hijack.  No, it is not the same thing...but they are kindred.I don't know the system that [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] is talking about, but the juxtaposition he draws is very clear to me in the same way that the confluence of (i) and (ii) in Dogs in the Vineyard is very clear to me.  What you're talking about:TTRPG's Perception/Insight, Read a Sitch, Discern Realities, Survey, Aware/Sense fundamentally do not possess these features described above.  They are the initial, active and volitional components of human cognition (Observe + Orient) in our OODA (Observe > Orient > Decide > Act) Loop that underwrites all of our interactions where we're "in control" (insofar as we're ever in control...but lets leave that to the side).  When its "Passive x (like Perception in D&D" all that means is that we've developed the capacity to turn these things into rote, self-automating processes so our "active minds" can focus on other things.  When we undergo Amygdala Hijack or are dealing with a Cortisol/Adrenaline Dump, it is exactly the volitional Observe + Orient components of our OODA Loop that go bye-bye.  We're neither actively observing and orienting nor are is our self-automating system procedurally performing this as a background subroutine.  "The system has gone on the fritz."  Consequently, the decision-tree that is executed and then the action this leads to are both underwritten by something even further away from our perceived expression of autonomous agency.</blockquote>

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