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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8317111" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, that sort of all reinforces my point, where is the GAME in this? Games normally have established rules and processes which are adopted by the participants. Yes, there's always some room for negotiation, idiosyncracies, etc. in any given implementation (Even MLB, where actually tagging 2nd base on a double play was simply a formality for many years, as long as the play wasn't too close and the player clearly COULD do it they were not held to it. This was partly an injury prevention 'rule', but it was not in the rule books and IIRC was eventually criticized and I guess the practice is now deprecated, though it has been years since I paid that much attention to the sport). So, yeah, but a lot of groups are NOT long term, or new people come in, etc. One new guy in our D&D group has caused huge problems on a few ocassions!Well, limiting things to 5e, what would be a more optimum class in a non-combat environment than a Wizard? Their main limitation, being a Daily Refresh class is probably not going to matter in this sort of game most of the time (one that is 'court intrigue' I mean, or similar). Anyway, this is a sort of whole different discussion, but it complicates use of D&D in these alternate types of games, at least as-is.I think it is a lot more free-form and a lot more dominated by DM style and agenda than you think, you've just gotten used to it and take it as a 'baseline' that you expect from RPGs. IME GMs are not all that consistent when there aren't any guardrails. Anyway, it STILL supports my contention, D&D (5e specifically, but really also all classic versions and 3.x) is NOT A GAME outside of combat, not fully. It is essentially a process where the GM presents fiction, the players state how they interact with it and declare checks (maybe, as in 5e, the GM gets to decide which skill/ability/feature gets invoked), the player rolls, and then the GM decides what the significance of that roll is, using it as a GUIDELINE to build some more fiction. Even convention only provides some bounds on what is normally expected from the GM. This is VASTLY different from how things work in say Dungeon World where the GM does have pretty wide fictional latitude, but in other respects is pretty constrained and has been explicitly told what techniques to use and how to employ them such that it is fair to call it a game with established rules.For all of 5e's books full of procedures and subsystems and whatnot, at its heart there is really no structure at all. We call these things games by convention, but I am a little dubious.</blockquote>

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