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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lyxen" data-source="post: 8444030" data-attributes="member: 7032025">The main problem with this discussion is that some people cannot rid themselves of their real world reflexes. Yes, on our world, if you are forced to do evil, some could consider that you are not really doing evil since it was not done of your own free will. But honestly, first, it's not true, because the real world is not that absolute. I'm sorry to fall immediately into Godwin's Law, but please consider concentration camp guards. And that's all what I will say on the subject, since real world it not really the issue here, but it shows that there can be evil influences that push people towards evil, towards doing evil without relying on supernatural causes. note that this is not 'inherently evil", but shows that influence, subtle or not, can lead people to evil, to doing evil, to the "banality of evil" even without supernatural causes.However, in a fantasy world, you can have evil in many forms, natural and supernatural. And supernatural can be divine, magical, planar, and yes, why not, even "genetical" if it links you back to some forces. This is what D&D says about orcs and also half-orcs: "Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc gods, and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god’s influence.)"So it's in fact easy, considering the variety of possible influences above, and their various degrees and means of action, to create fantastical inherently evil races or species. And it does not have to be binary, it can be just subtle influences, that a given creature can succumb to or not (if, in addition, the creature is inherently weak-willed - low racial wisdom - they succumb much more often than not), that a creature can regret or indulge on, etc. It still has free will, but if it's a constant effort or sacrifice not to succumb...Whether you like it or not is really a matter of taste. I think the time when people needed their adversaries to be evil so that they can be slaughtered has passed. In the beginning (see the satanical scare), playing in an evil fashion was frowned upon, but since in particular some computer games came out where playing evil was not only a possibility but a necessity to complete the game, there is no such requirement in the game. Also, when you play D&D as more of a combat game (perfectly legit way of playing), you really don't care about this, you just want technical adversaries that challenge you.So, like almost everything in D&D, it's totally personal and the game is open enough to allow most ways of playing, without anyone having any right to frown upon some other person's game as long as they are having fun and respect each other sensibilities. That does not mean that any game has to be to everyone's liking, though, it's perfectly OK to have your own tastes as long as you respect those of others.Some table will like inherently evil, others will not, some will like "always evil", others will prefer "often evil", others will prefer what they call a more nuanced approach (although I must say that in itself this is smacking of "superiority" as it somehow hints that the others are not nuanced in their gaming, which is not true, it's just biased in a different way).As for myself, I like to keep my options open and be free to create what I think will be the best for the table I'm running. I don't want to deprive myself of any possibilities. The approaches that work the best for me are those like the Wheel of Time or Sanderson's books and in particular the Cosmere ones. There is certainly free will, but there is influence, sometimes subtle, sometimes overwhelming, and in any case often a lot of trickery...</blockquote>

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