Initial multi-class feat imbalances.

[Kzach]

When first glancing through the multi-class rules I was a little underwhelmed by the fact that technically you're weakening your class since you're effectively burning a feat and not getting any benefit from it.

All except the initial multi-class feats. The Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc.

In them, you get a bonus class feature, albeit weaker than the actual class one, but still a bonus.

On top of this, the feats themselves are terribly imbalanced even compared to themselves. The Student of the Sword, for instance, is incredibly weak compared to the others. The paladin, ranger and rogue ones aren't much better.

But it doesn't stop there.

As I was perusing the ritual rules I learned a very cool thing. All you need as a non-caster to do rituals is to be trained in a skill and get the feat.

Awesome! Here comes my dwarven weaponsmith master crafter fighter extraordinaire!

But... wait...

Initial multi-class feats also give skill training. So, why bother taking an extra feat for skill training when I can get a bonus power as well?

But which one? Kinda a no-brainer, I have to say. Wizard, warlock or cleric multi-class feats are by far the best in this respect. Religion or arcana training and either a use of a healing surge as a minor action per day or a wizard or warlock power.

Or, maybe I could get a +1 bonus to hit and give a target a -2 to hit someone else til my next turn... not.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

When first glancing through the multi-class rules I was a little underwhelmed by the fact that technically you're weakening your class since you're effectively burning a feat and not getting any benefit from it.

All except the initial multi-class feats. The Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc.

In them, you get a bonus class feature, albeit weaker than the actual class one, but still a bonus.

On top of this, the feats themselves are terribly imbalanced even compared to themselves. The Student of the Sword, for instance, is incredibly weak compared to the others. The paladin, ranger and rogue ones aren't much better.

But it doesn't stop there.

As I was perusing the ritual rules I learned a very cool thing. All you need as a non-caster to do rituals is to be trained in a skill and get the feat.

Awesome! Here comes my dwarven weaponsmith master crafter fighter extraordinaire!

But... wait...

Initial multi-class feats also give skill training. So, why bother taking an extra feat for skill training when I can get a bonus power as well?

But which one? Kinda a no-brainer, I have to say. Wizard, warlock or cleric multi-class feats are by far the best in this respect. Religion or arcana training and either a use of a healing surge as a minor action per day or a wizard or warlock power.

Or, maybe I could get a +1 bonus to hit and give a target a -2 to hit someone else til my next turn... not.

A) I dont understand how you get no benefit from the feat. The benefit from the feat is what the feat does.

B) Student of the sword is great, assuming you want to mark your opponent.

C) Multiclass feats have prerequisites. That means that if I want to use rituals I have to spend all of my bonuses to my ability scores not boosting what would really be helpfully to the class I actually want to play, but on a dump stat that I dont care about. Or I could get Skill Training with no prerequisits, and then get ritual training two levels later.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

B) Student of the sword is great, assuming you want to mark your opponent.

At least theoretically, it also seems good assuming that you want to hit your opponent. Glancing briefly through a friend's book today, I noticed I noticed three feats or feat classes that improved attack bonus; the rest come from stats, weapons, and powers: Dwarven/Elven/Eladrin weapon training (strangely, I didn't notice human weapon training, dragonborn weapon training or similar feats which may make those races non-viable for weapon using warrior types, but I could have missed them), Weapon Focus, and Student of the Sword (which is strictly better than weapon focus though it does prevent taking other class training feats).

Now, for a warlord, paladin, or similar non-fighter character, I can easily see taking all three feats. Having +4 to hit and +2 damage is a pretty big advantage vis a vis other characters. And tacking those on to your basic attack is pretty sweet since, at least if the minis game is any indication, you'll be spending quite a bit of time using your basic attack.

 

[Blackeagle]

Glancing briefly through a friend's book today, I noticed I noticed three feats or feat classes that improved attack bonus; the rest come from stats, weapons, and powers: Dwarven/Elven/Eladrin weapon training (strangely, I didn't notice human weapon training, dragonborn weapon training or similar feats which may make those races non-viable for weapon using warrior types, but I could have missed them), Weapon Focus, and Student of the Sword (which is strictly better than weapon focus though it does prevent taking other class training feats).

Dwarven Weapon training adds to damage, not attack rolls. IIRC weapon focus does as well. Pluses to hit are really rare in 4e.

And tacking those on to your basic attack is pretty sweet since, at least if the minis game is any indication, you'll be spending quite a bit of time using your basic attack.

Given that every class has two at wills, the basic attack probably won't see all that much use.

 

[Samurai]

When first glancing through the multi-class rules I was a little underwhelmed by the fact that technically you're weakening your class since you're effectively burning a feat and not getting any benefit from it.

All except the initial multi-class feats. The Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc.

In them, you get a bonus class feature, albeit weaker than the actual class one, but still a bonus.

On top of this, the feats themselves are terribly imbalanced even compared to themselves. The Student of the Sword, for instance, is incredibly weak compared to the others. The paladin, ranger and rogue ones aren't much better.

But it doesn't stop there.

As I was perusing the ritual rules I learned a very cool thing. All you need as a non-caster to do rituals is to be trained in a skill and get the feat.

Awesome! Here comes my dwarven weaponsmith master crafter fighter extraordinaire!

But... wait...

Initial multi-class feats also give skill training. So, why bother taking an extra feat for skill training when I can get a bonus power as well?

But which one? Kinda a no-brainer, I have to say. Wizard, warlock or cleric multi-class feats are by far the best in this respect. Religion or arcana training and either a use of a healing surge as a minor action per day or a wizard or warlock power.

Or, maybe I could get a +1 bonus to hit and give a target a -2 to hit someone else til my next turn... not.

If you want to make it harder to qualify for multiclassing, you could raise the stat requirements from 13 to 15 each...

 

[Kzach]

A) I dont understand how you get no benefit from the feat. The benefit from the feat is what the feat does.

Yes, but the feat gives you the ability to REPLACE a class power with class power from a different class.

Therefore, you get a net loss. The balance of this is supposedly that by being more flexible in your power choices, you are more powerful.

B) Student of the sword is great, assuming you want to mark your opponent.

You get to mark your opponent once per encounter and the mark only lasts until the end of your next turn.

Compare that to the ability to use a healing surge as a minor action once per day, or the ability to cast one of the wizard at-wills once per encounter or one of the warlock's at-wills once per encounter.

C) Multiclass feats have prerequisites. That means that if I want to use rituals I have to spend all of my bonuses to my ability scores not boosting what would really be helpfully to the class I actually want to play, but on a dump stat that I dont care about. Or I could get Skill Training with no prerequisits, and then get ritual training two levels later.

Umm... huh?

I'm talking about the Initial multi-class feat. The very first one that you can take whenever you have a feat spare. The prerequisites are just an ability score which you can match to just about any one of the feats that will give you Religion or Arcana in any class.

 

[Alikar]

How is my fighter with a fireball a net loss? I now have FIREBALL! A good exchange in my opinion.

 

[small pumpkin man]

When first glancing through the multi-class rules I was a little underwhelmed by the fact that technically you're weakening your class since you're effectively burning a feat and not getting any benefit from it.

They seem to break the "cannot make a bad choce" rule yes, it is possible to screw yourself over. On the other hand, stuff like a Fighter getting good healing or buff powers, or a Warlod getting good ranged attacks isn't something to sneeze at. Most of the time the feats will be "meh", but when optimized they'll be the best feats in the game. That's how open-ended things work.

All except the initial multi-class feats. The Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc.

In them, you get a bonus class feature, albeit weaker than the actual class one, but still a bonus.

On top of this, the feats themselves are terribly imbalanced even compared to themselves. The Student of the Sword, for instance, is incredibly weak compared to the others. The paladin, ranger and rogue ones aren't much better.

No. Student of the Sword is pretty much the best, because +1 to hit makes you better at things you're allready good at, as opposed to giving you completely new abilities you never had before, and which are very restricted.

But it doesn't stop there.

As I was perusing the ritual rules I learned a very cool thing. All you need as a non-caster to do rituals is to be trained in a skill and get the feat.

Awesome! Here comes my dwarven weaponsmith master crafter fighter extraordinaire!

But... wait...

Initial multi-class feats also give skill training. So, why bother taking an extra feat for skill training when I can get a bonus power as well?

Yes, if you have ritual casting and a high enough stat, and haven't allready multiclassed, you're better of taking the multiclassing feat. Not a really big deal.

But which one? Kinda a no-brainer, I have to say. Wizard, warlock or cleric multi-class feats are by far the best in this respect. Religion or arcana training and either a use of a healing surge as a minor action per day or a wizard or warlock power.

Or, maybe I could get a +1 bonus to hit and give a target a -2 to hit someone else til my next turn... not.

+1 to hit on your allready really good powers (your dailys and such that use your highest stat, and get other bonuses from your class) is much better than healing word once per day, or Magic Missile once per encounter (uhm, yay?). It certainly scales much better than any of the other ones.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Yes, but the feat gives you the ability to REPLACE a class power with class power from a different class.

Therefore, you get a net loss. The balance of this is supposedly that by being more flexible in your power choices, you are more powerful.

Hence the benefit.

You get to mark your opponent once per encounter and the mark only lasts until the end of your next turn.

Compare that to the ability to use a healing surge as a minor action once per day, or the ability to cast one of the wizard at-wills once per encounter or one of the warlock's at-wills once per encounter.

That is assuming you meet the prerequisits to those other multiclass feats. Odds are a rogue isnt going to have a great INT.

Umm... huh?

I'm talking about the Initial multi-class feat. The very first one that you can take whenever you have a feat spare. The prerequisites are just an ability score which you can match to just about any one of the feats that will give you Religion or Arcana in any class.

And my point is that in order to do that you have to have those ability scores, or worse have to wait a couple levels until you can boost those ability scores. A much simpler solution if all you want is the ability to cast Rituals is to take skill training and then take ritual training (or whatever its called).

To reiterate, multi classing in order to get train is a specific skill is great, but only if you meet the prereq. If you dont, skill training is the feat for you.

 

[Kzach]

No. Student of the Sword is pretty much the best, because +1 to hit makes you better at things you're allready good at, as opposed to giving you completely new abilities you never had before, and which are very restricted.

It's a +1 to hit ONCE per encounter, not all the time.

Being able to use an extra healing surge during a combat is a much, much, much bigger benefit to any class.