Input needed - low-magic system, especially for divine

[Ilja]

So, for a campaign and it's setting that I'm soon to start, I've been thinking about the cleric and paladin.
It is a low-magic high-fantasy setting (the normal amount of elves, gnomes, and beasts - less fireballs and demon summoning). For most of the spellcasting classes, the changes have been pretty straightforward.
Wizard - At most 1/2 character levels can be wizard or sorcerer levels.
Sorcerer - As above, and only gnomes and elves of the player races can be sorcerers. Also, sorcerers cast spells from the Witch list found in the DMG. However, they know 1 more spell per spell level than in RAW.
Druids - Do not exist.
Rangers - Cannot cast spells, gets other compensation.

However, divine beings are still powerful and I want divine casters to represent that. Human wizards can only dabble in what the gods do for a living, and priests and rightous warriors should be able to request help from these.

Right now, I've only got the basic outlines. The idea is that clerics and paladins should have a piety value, indicating how they stand in their gods favor. Piety is gained through service through the god(s) and daily prayers.
Whenever a divine caster wants to pray for help from the god (cast a spell), he has to do a "Piety Check", basically 1d20+piety+wisdom modifier, against a DC based on the spell requested. If it succeeds, the god interferes and uses the cleric as a medium through which the spell is cast. However, you actually "use up" some of that favor; constantly begging for help will surely piss of the god in question. As such, the piety value is lowered a small amount whenever a spell is cast. If you have negative piety points you can never succeed.
If the check fails, the god has deemed your wish unnecessary and not granted you it. However, this taxes the relation with the god even more, lowering the piety even more.

As such, the cleric will not have to prepare spells, but each religious organization will have only a limited number of different prayers. Each cleric will have a set of spells that can be wished for. There is neither a set maximum of number of spells per spell level per day, but instead the limit is dictated by the piety of the cleric or paladin.

So, what I need input on: What do you people think? Balance issues aren't a problem unless it's really effed up, because we have a quite flexible group.
Also, how high should I put the cap on piety? I was thinking 1/level for cleric and 1/2 levels for paladin, having the DC of spells somewhere around 5+2*spell level. And also, how much should the piety be lowered on a failed spell and a successful spell respectively?
Anything else I should think about?

Does anyone know if maybe something like this already exists?

EDIT: Noted should also be that I've nerfed healing a lot, and also that negative piety should actually be disfavor of the god in question, leading to all kinds of bad stuff for a cleric or paladin.

 

[Herzog]

It's an interesting mechanic, on which I would like to shed my thoughts:


1. Don't penalize the divine spellcaster more on a failed check. It's hard enough to lose the piety without getting the spell in return. That way, you have one mechanic to keep track of instead of two.
2. I'm not sure I get your DC's. Or the exact mechanic. Are you saying a cleric's piety is going to be (maximum) equal to his lvl? If so, he will be able to cast only one spell (assuming the check succeeds) and then his piety will be lowered (by, I'm assuming, at least 1 point) getting his piety lvl to 0. Can he still request spells with piety 0?
How about the DC? does a first lvl spell have a DC of 7? and an 9th lvl spell a DC of 23? I would think the DC of 7 is rather high for a first lvl spell, while the DC of 23 might be a bit low for a 9th lvl spell. That needs some work!
3. How much are you planning to make such a spell 'cost' in piety: spell lvl*caster lvl? That seems reasonable, since most spells scale with caster lvl. (You could allow a high lvl caster to artificially request a lower caster lvl 'miracle'.)

I'd try to make sure the Cleric can cast approximately the same amount of spells per day as the Wizard in your party (using the half progression you describe!) otherwise the wizard would still be more powerfull than the Cleric. Of course, you'd have to make an educated guess on piety aquired and spent per day.....

 

[Ilja]

Thanks for input!

It's an interesting mechanic, on which I would like to shed my thoughts:


1. Don't penalize the divine spellcaster more on a failed check. It's hard enough to lose the piety without getting the spell in return. That way, you have one mechanic to keep track of instead of two.

Yes, that might be a good idea. Guess I was inspired by the swedish game EON, that uses similiar rules but for all professions (there are no classes in the same way as D&D). In EON, if you fail at the prayer, your piety is instantly set to 0. On the other hand, in EON, most fighters that have actually survived three fights will be missing at least as many limbs. But yeah, having the same penalty seems reasonable and more easy.

2. I'm not sure I get your DC's. Or the exact mechanic. Are you saying a cleric's piety is going to be (maximum) equal to his lvl? If so, he will be able to cast only one spell (assuming the check succeeds) and then his piety will be lowered (by, I'm assuming, at least 1 point) getting his piety lvl to 0. Can he still request spells with piety 0?
How about the DC? does a first lvl spell have a DC of 7? and an 9th lvl spell a DC of 23? I would think the DC of 7 is rather high for a first lvl spell, while the DC of 23 might be a bit low for a 9th lvl spell. That needs some work!

Yes, a first level cleric will not be able to cast more than one spell on a single day. Most days, a cleric should not cast any spells at all - divine intervention should be powerful, but rare. But now that you mention it, maybe I should set it to level +2 or something. Anyways, a cleric will not be a spellcaster as much as a religious leader that may in dire circumstances ask for divine intervention.
Are the DC's that much of? A 1-st level cleric casting a 1-st level spell, having a WIS of +2, will succeed on a 4 or above (1d20+1+2). A 17-th level cleric with maximum current piety and WIS +5 (4 extra points wisdom from levels, +2 from magic item - it's a low-magic world, so that seems kind of fair) will succeed on... Oh, you're right, a 1 or more. Maybe setting it to something like 3+3*level would be fairer. That would make a level 9 spell have a DC of 30 to be cast, certainly difficult if not under favorable circumstances.
Oh, forgot to mention that. If the prayer is in line with the god's portfolio, or it's really in the interest of the church or whatever, the caster can gain a bonus on the roll, and vice versa. Asking a god of healing for a Harm spell will be hard indeed.

3. How much are you planning to make such a spell 'cost' in piety: spell lvl*caster lvl? That seems reasonable, since most spells scale with caster lvl. (You could allow a high lvl caster to artificially request a lower caster lvl 'miracle'.)
No, far less. More likely plain spell level. Remember, a 5th level cleric will have a max piety of 5 (or 7 if I change to level+2).
Also, piety will not be replenished daily. It will take a long time indeed, and as such, clerics won't be common among adventurers. It will be a class more often held by NPCs, though Paladins might be more common among the questing knights.
I was thinking something along the lines of 1 point of piety per month of devoted service at a temple, 1 point whenever gaining a cleric level, and 1-2 points for doing something really great in the deity's cause.

Also, I'm thinking of including group prayers where a whole church could gather to summon the will of their god .

Clerics will also have more skill points/level and a few more class skills that makes sense such as gather information and all knowledge skills, as well as Linguistics.

I'd try to make sure the Cleric can cast approximately the same amount of spells per day as the Wizard in your party (using the half progression you describe!) otherwise the wizard would still be more powerfull than the Cleric. Of course, you'd have to make an educated guess on piety aquired and spent per day.....

I'm sorry for being unclear, the cleric shouldn't be casting spells each day at all. Divine intervention is a lifeline, not bread- and butter. And the same number of spells would anyway be kind of unfair, since a cleric will be able to cast much more powerful spells.

 

[Herzog]

Ok, after your clarifications, one question springs to mind:

Why would anyone ever want to play a cleric?

Normally, the reduced BaB and lack of Fighter Bonus Feats are compensated for by divine spells.

Now, you don't have spells (maybe one spell per month IMO equals no spells at all) and still lack the BaB and Feats.

I'd say I'd go for fighter.

If your reply should be: "it's an NPC class", then why bother specifying it at all? Just run with it, allowing NPC clerics to obtain divine intervention whenever necessary. No game mechanic needed.....

 

[Ilja]

Ok, after your clarifications, one question springs to mind:

Why would anyone ever want to play a cleric?

Normally, the reduced BaB and lack of Fighter Bonus Feats are compensated for by divine spells.

Now, you don't have spells (maybe one spell per month IMO equals no spells at all) and still lack the BaB and Feats.

I'd say I'd go for fighter.

If your reply should be: "it's an NPC class", then why bother specifying it at all? Just run with it, allowing NPC clerics to obtain divine intervention whenever necessary. No game mechanic needed.....

Because of other changes as well. The cleric will have more social skills - bluff, gather information, intimidate, language and all knowledge skills as well as 4 skill points per level.
Also, we will be using the grim'n'gritty rules, meaning hit points will be far less increasing than now, meaning damaging spells will be very powerful. Being hit by a single Flame Strike might very well result in massive death. Also, due to less magic, remember that there will be few magic weapons, so the damage of the fighter will be heavily nerfed. Due to lack of magic healing, the heal skill will be immensely useful, and due to lack of divination, gather information will be useful. At last, due to low amounts of magic, the amount of anti-magic is also extremely low.
Due to the lack of magic, the magic that exists will be reaaaally important.

And I don't really have a problem with clerics not being in most adventuring groups. Clerics will simply be more cloistered and more of religious leaders in society than the backbone healers of adventuring groups. The paladin will be the main "religious zealot" rather than the cleric.

 

[Herzog]

Ok, fair enough.

I'm just having trouble coming up with any (house) rule advice on a gameworld that far from the standard D&D setting/rules.

And I can imagine I won't be the only one, so don't be too surprised if the amount of reactions you get is low.

Good luck!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Does anyone know if maybe something like this already exists?

Yes. The first one that comes to mind (for 3e) is Miracles & Wonders, from Adamant Entertainment, but from what I gather, it's no longer available, and that's that.

Anyway, I'd probably suggest just going with the same decision as for Wizards and Sorcerers (i.e., no more than half you levels in Cleric). Maybe Paladins could be non-spellcasters, like your Rangers, as well. Mine are, and I wouldn't have it any other way. But YMMV, obviously.

 

[Ilja]

Well, thanks a lot for the input anyway - I understand that it may be hard to evaluate when the world has so different power centra. I guess playtesting will be the final answer

And I'll look out for Miracles & Wonders!

 

[Sylrae]

I have a bit of advice. If you're going to make the cleric's be less magic-ey, maybe a larger number of skills is in order, like a base of 6.

I'd probably also give them higher spell levels. With that few spells, the few that they get should be considerably more powerful. Like, make the level 1 characters get level 4 or 5 spells, since they only get 1 per month. Then as they increase, make them get points a bit faster as they progress towards level 9 spells.