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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5337822" data-attributes="member: 996">I haven't seen every ritual published, so I missed it there was a Charm Person ritual.&nbsp; Rituals that might replace a skill /check/, like Knock, carry not only a cost to buy and use, but even cost a healing surge.&nbsp; That's to replace a skill check.&nbsp; To obviate a Skill Challenge, obviously, a ritual should carry a high price, indeed - just not quite as high as failing the challenge. Well, it's not /now/, because the spell is there - irrefutable circular logic.&nbsp; &nbsp;Getting a leader to help you out is a sample Skill Challenge in the DMG.&nbsp; Obviously, it's exactly the sort of thing Skill Challenges are meant to be.&nbsp; Maybe someone who follows Dungeon mag or runs official module could chime in with a few more examples of 'befriending' (getting help or information or whatever from) an individual?&nbsp;That's a solid ruling - treat it as a successful diplomacy check, so 1 success on the skill challenge.&nbsp; Not every DM will come up with that ruling, since the spell description is so vague.&nbsp; Updating the spell to give a modifier Diplomacy or Arcana-as-Diplomacy check instead of a save, or automatic success at Diplomacy with a failed save, would be a good idea for WotC.&nbsp;The restrictions on it are almost identical to past versions of Charm Person or Friends.&nbsp; It's problematic for all the same old reasons, because it's fundamentally the same old spell.&nbsp; Which, since Essentials is trying so hard to be retro, is, I suppose, kinda the point.&nbsp; Still, they could have put the retro stuff in flavor text and provided solid mechanics that wouldn't risk misinterpretation spoiling skill challenges or the like.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5337822, member: 996"] I haven't seen every ritual published, so I missed it there was a Charm Person ritual. Rituals that might replace a skill /check/, like Knock, carry not only a cost to buy and use, but even cost a healing surge. That's to replace a skill check. To obviate a Skill Challenge, obviously, a ritual should carry a high price, indeed - just not quite as high as failing the challenge. Well, it's not /now/, because the spell is there - irrefutable circular logic. Getting a leader to help you out is a sample Skill Challenge in the DMG. Obviously, it's exactly the sort of thing Skill Challenges are meant to be. Maybe someone who follows Dungeon mag or runs official module could chime in with a few more examples of 'befriending' (getting help or information or whatever from) an individual? That's a solid ruling - treat it as a successful diplomacy check, so 1 success on the skill challenge. Not every DM will come up with that ruling, since the spell description is so vague. Updating the spell to give a modifier Diplomacy or Arcana-as-Diplomacy check instead of a save, or automatic success at Diplomacy with a failed save, would be a good idea for WotC. The restrictions on it are almost identical to past versions of Charm Person or Friends. It's problematic for all the same old reasons, because it's fundamentally the same old spell. Which, since Essentials is trying so hard to be retro, is, I suppose, kinda the point. Still, they could have put the retro stuff in flavor text and provided solid mechanics that wouldn't risk misinterpretation spoiling skill challenges or the like. [/QUOTE]

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