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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5338640" data-attributes="member: 61155">I'm not sure what is circular about anything I've said.  Again - say our goal is to convince Lord Samuel to send us a company of troops to fight some orcs. If this is a Skill Challenge, there has to be a reason why a single Diplomacy check isn't all that is needed. By the DM deciding to use a Skill Challenge, you are already deciding that things are more complicated than simply getting someone to like you.  In the context of a Skill Challenge, it may play out like this - I tell Lord Samuel of our many deeds and our just cause, impressing him as best I can. I roll an exceptional Diplomacy check.  In response, he nods, and says, "Your words are righteous and I can see you are a man of great honor! But while I commend your goals, we have other threats to deal with, and I hesitate to send any of my troops away at this dangerous time..." How is this any difference from: I meet with Lord Samuel and explain the situation, charming him with Instant Friends.  In response, he nods, and says, "My friend, I want nothing more than to aid you in your righteous quest! But what you ask is no simple matter - if I am to send my men into danger, it must be for the good of the kingdom, and not just at your word alone." Let's go a step further and take Instant Friends out of the picture entirely. Say we've already saved the kindom once. Say we are already friends with Lord Samuel. Does that mean that, if we suddenly decide we need an army to go attack some foes, he will automatically turn one over to us? Or let us simply claim all the treasure he has at his possession?  Why would friendship, real or compelled, override all other aspects of a challenge? If the challenge is that simple, it was a bad idea to make it a Skill Challenge in the first place.  Now, even so... it may be possible that there could exist some challenge that this trivializes. (Though no actual examples of such have been given). But as I noted - this already exists. Movement based powers and rituals overcoming movement based challenges. Teleportation or other rituals bypassing the possibly for certain challenges entirely. Various magic items with unique abilities can unravel challenges. Rituals already exist to influence people and create friendship. Etc. I gave an example - how the Fly spell might impact a river-crossing Skill Challenge. And various ways a DM might respond. How is that any different than this situation?</blockquote>

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