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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5342075" data-attributes="member: 82106">You understand that this ENTIRE POST is virtually a poster for why this power should NOT EXIST IN THIS FORM, right?First of all the very existence of this kind of extended argument illustrates the entire problem in all its glory. These are EXACTLY the debates that go on and on in endless circles around the table whenever it comes up.Secondly you've illustrated perfectly what the distorting effects are on the DM's planning. The very fact that a DM would have to contemplate putting "magical wards" on all his plot critical NPCs is EXACTLY WHAT WE HATED ABOUT PREVIOUS EDITIONS OF THIS POWER!!!!!You can call the DMing examples of Kamikaze Midget examples of bad DMing and that isn't an entirely bad characterization. The problem is it is exactly the way DMs generally DO think and operate when faced with plot busting open-ended mechanics like this. Saying it isn't broken because "any good DM" can deal with it is just an "Any Good Scottsman" fallacy. A rule which is difficult to implement and is either a worthless trap or a panacea needs to be looked at with a very leery eye. My experience furthermore tells me that even GOOD DMs will run into these problems. No DM is going to anticipate everything the players are going to do or the ways they are going to try to twist this thing into an advantage. Some of them are going to bugger the works. With a power who's consequences are well-defined at least the issues can mostly be anticipated and if it isn't open-ended at WORST it might trivialize some encounter or other.All the arguments you make about the limitations of the power also just say to me that basically it isn't going to be worth much at your table. I don't get why we have to have a power which has to be ruled against the players so much to make it in line with where it should be. This is another indication of a problem. What I see is that everyone defending this thing is basically making it into "Effect: You get a +2 on all Diplomacy, Bluff, Streetwise, and Insight checks involving the target. Alternately you can score one success in any challenge which allows these skills to be used." How is that a WORSE version? The fluff text can say "The target treats you like a friend for the next 4 hours." Nothing creative is lost at all. Most arguments that might arise WRT to the power vanish. Its effectiveness is going to be almost exactly what it is now. The long and short of it is that the mechanics of this thing are just stupidly designed. Insufficient consideration went into designing the power. The CONCEPT is OK, but the execution is lacking. Finally if THIS is a level 2 Utility, what does a level 28 (whatever the highest level of utility power is, I forget) utility along the same lines look like? I mean what we have here is already in most respects the upper bound of what can reasonably be allowed with a power. By putting it at level 2 the designers have basically boxed themselves in. Sure they can make a version that affects a bunch of targets, works in combat, lasts longer, etc. but those will just cause WORSE problems. This is why the level of the power is inappropriate. You can't build a rational power progression for a mage school around this power as designed.</blockquote>

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