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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5343285" data-attributes="member: 61155">Ok, I'm pretty sure you aren't doing this intentionally, but are genuinely misreading what I'm saying. Nonetheless, that has never been the argument I've made.  What I've said is that any challenge that might be bypassed by the spell is too simple to be a Skill Chalenge, since it could be bypassed by any number of other simple, single-check approaches.   My point wasn't that a DM can figure out solutions to any of these problems - obviously that isn't a proof that another DM might not be able to figure out a way to handle it. My point was more that, in most of those examples, in order to have a problem come up, a DM had to deliberately ignore restrictions written into the power itself. I don't see any way WotC can be blamed for that.  More than that... my counter-examples weren't just about ways Instant Friends wasn't a problem. (I agree, that isn't definitive proof of it not being flawed.) My examples were showing ways that other elements could present the same exact issue.  You've got your sage guarding the temple archives. Instead of trying to charm him, bribe him, etc... the party approaches with a forged note from his superiors, and makes a successful Bluff check. Why is or isn't this enough to win the challenge?  What about having them cause a distraction and then sneak past when he investigates? One PC has Breaching armor and just teleports through the back wall and finds what they need. The druid turns into a small bird and flies in through a window. Etc. How would you address these various possibilities?  PCs already have many approaches that they might undertake which might bypass a challenge or involve approaching it in an unexpected way. That's one of the reasons skill challenges generally are designed to be dynamic, and to involve more than one single simple element. How effective such approaches will be already comes down to the DM.  One DM might let those approaches work completely and bypass the challenge. Another might adapt the challenge and ask for new checks to complete it. Another might just declare they don't work - the vault is too thick to teleport into, the windows are too small for animals to get through, the sage remains unhelpful even when charmed. I just don't see Instant Friends as any more problematic than many of these existing powers, items, skills and rituals.   And those are generally bad skill challenges. The advice given on skill challenges specifically says that anything that involves the entire party sitting around and repeating the same check is the sort of challenge you want to avoid.   But the spell doesn't make them willing to do anything for a trusted friend. It makes them willing to do anything that doesn't involve risk to them or their property. That... generally only helps you with something that is probably not all that big a deal in the first place.  You've mentioned the DMG example several times - but again, you are trying to get the Duke to give the party some aid or assistance. You are directly asking him to give up property or risk sending his troops to help the party or whatever. Instant Friends explicitly can't do that for you. A DM could certainly say that it helps, but saying that it wins the challenge requires outright ignoring the requirements of the power itself.</blockquote>

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