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Instant Wizard?
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<blockquote data-quote="Nifft" data-source="post: 3437357" data-attributes="member: 6562"><p>I just don't see this as cheese, though. IMHO Cheese is getting something for nothing through a rules loophole -- for example, the "Lesser Planetouched" in some FR supplement who get +2 to a mental ability score <u>and</u> can lawyer their way into getting all Martial weapon proficiencies (since their type is Outsider) without wasting a level taking a non-Wizard class.</p><p></p><p>IMHO, the guy your player has in his head is a skillful guy. He wants to play a wizard who's less magical but more skillful. He's paying a caster level to get a skill benefit. Why can't he get the biggest benefit for his sacrifice?</p><p></p><p>If there were two feats, one which gave a +2 and one which gave a +4 (but you had to take the +4 feat at 1st level), would you call him cheesy for taking the +4 feat at 1st level?</p><p></p><p>- - -</p><p></p><p>However, discussing what's cheese vs. what's just trying to make the best PC which resembles the guy in someone's head may not be the best use of our time. How about instead, we modify the Wizard class to make it palatable for this PC:</p><p></p><p>+ <strong>6 skill points / level</strong> with full Rogue + Wizard skill lists. He's still inferior to a Rogue in the skill department, mainly because spellcasters are practically required to invest heavily in Spellcraft and Concentration.</p><p></p><p>Now, what should he pay for this?</p><p>- No Familiar</p><p>- No free Scribe Scroll feat, and no bonus feats every 5 levels</p><p></p><p>IMHO, this is a reasonable trade off. Remove some of the big front-loaded stuff (2.5 free feats) from a Wizard, in trade for some other big front-loaded stuff (+16 skill points at 1st level, +4 every other level, better class skills). The thing is, free skills don't really power up a Wizard like free item creation feats do... but it may be a trade-off you're both willing to live with. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Cheers, -- N</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Nifft, post: 3437357, member: 6562"] I just don't see this as cheese, though. IMHO Cheese is getting something for nothing through a rules loophole -- for example, the "Lesser Planetouched" in some FR supplement who get +2 to a mental ability score [u]and[/u] can lawyer their way into getting all Martial weapon proficiencies (since their type is Outsider) without wasting a level taking a non-Wizard class. IMHO, the guy your player has in his head is a skillful guy. He wants to play a wizard who's less magical but more skillful. He's paying a caster level to get a skill benefit. Why can't he get the biggest benefit for his sacrifice? If there were two feats, one which gave a +2 and one which gave a +4 (but you had to take the +4 feat at 1st level), would you call him cheesy for taking the +4 feat at 1st level? - - - However, discussing what's cheese vs. what's just trying to make the best PC which resembles the guy in someone's head may not be the best use of our time. How about instead, we modify the Wizard class to make it palatable for this PC: + [b]6 skill points / level[/b] with full Rogue + Wizard skill lists. He's still inferior to a Rogue in the skill department, mainly because spellcasters are practically required to invest heavily in Spellcraft and Concentration. Now, what should he pay for this? - No Familiar - No free Scribe Scroll feat, and no bonus feats every 5 levels IMHO, this is a reasonable trade off. Remove some of the big front-loaded stuff (2.5 free feats) from a Wizard, in trade for some other big front-loaded stuff (+16 skill points at 1st level, +4 every other level, better class skills). The thing is, free skills don't really power up a Wizard like free item creation feats do... but it may be a trade-off you're both willing to live with. :) Cheers, -- N [/QUOTE]
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