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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7855767" data-attributes="member: 177">I will contrast it with another system:&nbsp; GUMSHOEGUMSHOE is designed for investigative and &quot;procedural&quot; stories.&nbsp; It has at its root the assumption that the act of getting clues or information is not terribly interesting, but what you do with that information is interesting.&nbsp; So, in Gumshoe games, getting information is very easy.&nbsp; If you have the right skills in a scene, and think to use them to find information, you get the basic stuff available, no need to roll.&nbsp; There may be information beyond the basic clues, and there is mechanic for spending a skill-based resource to get it. It still isn't chance - if you pay a point from your skill pool, you get the extra information, too,, with no chance of failure.D&amp;D does not have the same assumption at its core.&nbsp; D&amp;D assumes that you may well miss the information - &quot;the DM has to get you the information somehow&quot; is not a feature of the system.&nbsp; The situation described in the OP - where the knowledge skill is being used for infodump, and the GM is not going to allow the PCs to miss anything, then you are playing in the Gumeshoe mode.&nbsp; Just having the skill gets you the basic information.&nbsp; However, I suspect often enough in D&amp;D, the GM is not thinking about having &quot;basic&quot; and &quot;extra&quot; information, and so you lose the need for anything beyond basic competence.So if the stated issue is actually going on in your game, there's two basic solutions.&nbsp; 1) Star allowing PCs to miss information, or 2) have two levels of information - that which the PCs can get with basic competence, and that which you probably need expertise to get.&nbsp; There is another question - are you allowing your PCs do do things other than information gathering with knowledge skills?&nbsp; D&amp;D doesn't actually have great rules for such, which is unfortunate.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7855767, member: 177"] I will contrast it with another system: GUMSHOE GUMSHOE is designed for investigative and "procedural" stories. It has at its root the assumption that the act of getting clues or information is not terribly interesting, but what you do with that information is interesting. So, in Gumshoe games, getting information is very easy. If you have the right skills in a scene, and think to use them to find information, you get the basic stuff available, no need to roll. There may be information beyond the basic clues, and there is mechanic for spending a skill-based resource to get it. It still isn't chance - if you pay a point from your skill pool, you get the extra information, too,, with no chance of failure. D&D does not have the same assumption at its core. D&D assumes that you may well miss the information - "the DM has to get you the information somehow" is not a feature of the system. The situation described in the OP - where the knowledge skill is being used for infodump, and the GM is not going to allow the PCs to miss anything, then you are playing in the Gumeshoe mode. Just having the skill gets you the basic information. However, I suspect often enough in D&D, the GM is not thinking about having "basic" and "extra" information, and so you lose the need for anything beyond basic competence. So if the stated issue is actually going on in your game, there's two basic solutions. 1) Star allowing PCs to miss information, or 2) have two levels of information - that which the PCs can get with basic competence, and that which you probably need expertise to get. There is another question - are you allowing your PCs do do things other than information gathering with knowledge skills? D&D doesn't actually have great rules for such, which is unfortunate. [/QUOTE]

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