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Intelligence and Wisdom Checks (Skills) as GM Tool for Plot Rationing or Expository Dump
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<blockquote data-quote="Don Durito" data-source="post: 7857117" data-attributes="member: 6687260"><p>As the person quoted in the OP I want to say that I feel a lot of this thread is missing (what I at least) considered the main point.</p><p></p><p>I wasn't interested in the game grinding to a halt because a PC fails a skill. I'm just going to assume that most GMs who run into this issue are going to resolve it somehow - if only because a halted game obviously has to start again. In any case, as several posters have pointed out, this isn't necessarily a issue in sandbox games (Although if the GM wants to give exposition about their setting they've prepared it would still be silly to withold it because everyone rolled low).</p><p></p><p>The point I was making is that, given that, these skills aren't really all that important.</p><p></p><p>I mean yes, they can help reinforce the role-play of the learned character who knows a lot of stuff - but this is really more colour. (And is actually better done by the player having some source of knowledge they can feed through their character. If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms and want to show your knowledge of history it's better if the <em>player </em>knows stuff about Netheril. It's a bit weird if the player is rolling so the GM can exposit and then the character can pass that along. - Yes the GM may insist that if the PC wants to spout knowledge about Netheril than they have to take the skill but that's the tail wagging the dog - it's because the skill exists in the first place).</p><p></p><p>Similarly, in a Sandbox game a player who has the skill may be able to get info that wouldn't otherwise be available and allows them options, but like the plot driven game it's a bit of a game of chicken - the GM is giving options anyway - if the GM doesn't give the PCs meaningful choices than again the game halts. Lore works better in a sandbox game if players are acting on knowledge they uncover over the course of the game anyway. (Or at least if the knowledge the PCs have is shared by the players).</p><p></p><p>But to get back to expertise - the most important thing it does is reduce your chance of failure. The penalty for failure on knowledge skills is...?</p><p></p><p>The penalty for failure on stealth or disguise or deception could be much more severe. These proficiencies also open up whole new active avenues of approach. The master of disguise has far more opportunities to make a proactive impact on the game (to a degree - 5E's skill system does a poor job of rewarding proactive skill use - and Expertise is merely the poorly improvised band-aid put on top to partially fix this).</p><p></p><p>Also: I wouldn't try and run D&D like Gumshoe. Gumshoe already exists and is better at being Gumshoe.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Don Durito, post: 7857117, member: 6687260"] As the person quoted in the OP I want to say that I feel a lot of this thread is missing (what I at least) considered the main point. I wasn't interested in the game grinding to a halt because a PC fails a skill. I'm just going to assume that most GMs who run into this issue are going to resolve it somehow - if only because a halted game obviously has to start again. In any case, as several posters have pointed out, this isn't necessarily a issue in sandbox games (Although if the GM wants to give exposition about their setting they've prepared it would still be silly to withold it because everyone rolled low). The point I was making is that, given that, these skills aren't really all that important. I mean yes, they can help reinforce the role-play of the learned character who knows a lot of stuff - but this is really more colour. (And is actually better done by the player having some source of knowledge they can feed through their character. If you're playing in the Forgotten Realms and want to show your knowledge of history it's better if the [I]player [/I]knows stuff about Netheril. It's a bit weird if the player is rolling so the GM can exposit and then the character can pass that along. - Yes the GM may insist that if the PC wants to spout knowledge about Netheril than they have to take the skill but that's the tail wagging the dog - it's because the skill exists in the first place). Similarly, in a Sandbox game a player who has the skill may be able to get info that wouldn't otherwise be available and allows them options, but like the plot driven game it's a bit of a game of chicken - the GM is giving options anyway - if the GM doesn't give the PCs meaningful choices than again the game halts. Lore works better in a sandbox game if players are acting on knowledge they uncover over the course of the game anyway. (Or at least if the knowledge the PCs have is shared by the players). But to get back to expertise - the most important thing it does is reduce your chance of failure. The penalty for failure on knowledge skills is...? The penalty for failure on stealth or disguise or deception could be much more severe. These proficiencies also open up whole new active avenues of approach. The master of disguise has far more opportunities to make a proactive impact on the game (to a degree - 5E's skill system does a poor job of rewarding proactive skill use - and Expertise is merely the poorly improvised band-aid put on top to partially fix this). Also: I wouldn't try and run D&D like Gumshoe. Gumshoe already exists and is better at being Gumshoe. [/QUOTE]
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