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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8850280" data-attributes="member: 93670">It has to do with a combination of  niche protection combined with some mechanical differences that went away.  Here's thre step by step of how the entire niche was erased  in a shift from niche to default:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If you did not have points in a knowledge skill it was considered untrained.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[ispoiler]With knowledge skills :untrained" meant you could only ever get DC10 info & lower[/ispoiler]</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Anyone could be considered "trained" by putting one rank in a skill (ie knowledge:nature-vermin not knowledge nature-*) but if the particular skill was not considered as class skill doing that cost two skill points rather per rank than just one[spoiler="'class' knowledge skills by class"] <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">bardknowledge any<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bards had 6+int mod skill points but int was not a big attrib for them & they tended to be incentivized to prioritize social skills & such</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ClericKnowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cleric domains gave a little extra based on the domain , but with 2+int mod skill points/level knowledge skills beyond cleric specific stuff were not too high on their list unless needed for a PrC or feat choice</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Druid:  Knowledge (nature)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Oneknowledge subtype (nature) & withg 4+int mod there were reasons for them to not put too much beyond a point in a couple of the jucier five nature knowledge types</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ranger:  Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">dungeoneering was aberrations, caverns, oozes, & spelunking but with 6+int mod there were a lot of other more important skills to sink points into</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monk: Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4+int modskill points & the same other skills they want for mechanical reasons</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paladin: Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue: Knowledge (local)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">8+int mod but tons of skills they want more for mechanical reasons</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorcerer:  Knowledge (arcana)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">with 2+int mod & possibly a 6 in int they almost certainly have better places to stick skill points</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizard: Knowledge any<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2+int mod but having a prime attribute climb above 20 was not uncommon for this to be +8 to +10 or more points/level.  They also had a very short (but nonzero*) list of skills they felt were mechanically important & could afford to splurge a point or two here & there as they advance</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fighter/barbarian: N/A</li> </ul>[/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As noted int mod added to skill points gained each level so adding just 1 point to your knowledge skills made a big difference if you invested in intelligence but because there were a bunch of subskills it was not a trivial choice for most who could & not painless to go beyond the first point to be considered "trained".</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e both condensed the knowledge skills & made them easy to take without pain.  If a GM makes a particular theme of  knowledge checks important  & has Alice with a know stuff class while Bob Cimdy Dave & Edith have classes with no reason to know that theme it's trivial for them to make Alice's moment into "I want to try too, what do I know?" just by taking the obviously campaign relevant skill</li> </ul>When the wizard has +5 +6 or whatever to all of those & you couldn't get more than dc10 stuff without being trained in the knowledge subtype it mattered a lot.  Sure the wizard would probably want the druid/ranger to do nature: vermin or something because they probably  only had a single point in it before their int mod & maybe a tool/skill book brought it up.Now if I call for an knowledge check in 5e it's not uncommon to have more players with the relevant skill than not unless it's a rather niche one.  Worse than that, I simply can't use the niche skills for stuff because they all probably  have arcana or religion instead of ones relevant to their class' thematic niche in addition to all of the skills they have a mechanical reason to want for that niche.*[ispoiler]Ironically a big chunk of those skills  (spellcraft, decipher script, & concentration) are gone or just a con save now.[/ispoiler]</blockquote>

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