Intelligent Mount/Animal Comp & Reading

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Basically my questions are thus in descending order:

If you have an intelligent mount (eg a griffon; INT5) and you can cast Speak with Animals... can you teach the mount to read?

What if the mount is your Special Mount from Paladin at higher levels (griffon; INT9)

The ultimate question though... if you CAN teach your mount to read, could you then at the highest levels buy a Tome of Clear Thought +5 to get a Griffon with Int 14?

I know it's not resource efficient, but... an interesting idea and I couldn't find anything on it.

Thanks!
 

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1. Yes. Mundane animals (including druid’s animal companions) have too low an Int score to comprehend spoken/written language so could NOT be taught to read … however there’s no reason they could not once that threshold of sentience is crossed. Many primates have proven able “conservationists” via push-button/sign language in our world so why not there?

2. Paladin special Mounts and Sor/Wiz Familiars begin with Int6 and increase from there, so could learn to read/write per above.

3. Yes, once a creature learns to read a given language, ANY tome in THAT language would be available for its usage provided it could devise a means of flipping pages. Likewise Miracle/Wish could be applied directly for the same effect.


On a related note: Bear’s Endurance, Cat’s Grace, and Owl’s Wisdom are all 2nd level spells granting a temporary +4 enhancement to a given ability score and the Tome of Clear Thought is a carefully worded Miracle/Wish given physical form per its description.

Therefore since both Miracle/Wish spells clearly state they duplicate the effects of other spells not necessarily known by the caster, and one of those example effects is casting an unnamed spell granting an inherent +1 permanent bonus to a chosen ability score … it should be feasible to research that lower level spell. Likewise since Wish is limited to casting ANY spell upto 5th level (regardless of its arcane/divine nature), such a spell is obviously someplace between 3rd and 5th. Suggestions??
 

Personally, I would rule you have to awaken the animal first. A very clever animal is just a very clever animal, and rudimentary sign language or whatnot aside, it's a different thing to teach an animal real language use, IMO.

...the Tome of Clear Thought is a carefully worded Miracle/Wish given physical form per its description.
None of the tomes or manuals actually say that in the DMG 3.5. They are magic items that require miracle or wish (and cash and XP) to create. Not the same thing, IMO, and not a valid inference, also IMO. So the rest of your question, to me, becomes moot, sorry.
 

Personally, I would rule you have to awaken the animal first. A very clever animal is just a very clever animal, and rudimentary sign language or whatnot aside, it's a different thing to teach an animal real language use, IMO.

I'm sure there are other examples, but the one I was thinking of was Koko the low-land gorilla whose trainers (and numerous independent scholars) confirmed not only mastered American Sign Language and had independently created NEW words, but IRC taught several enclosure-mates to sign -- quite impressive for a "clever" animal and demonstrative of real language use; unless one disqualifies ASL as a "language"??

None of the tomes or manuals actually say that in the DMG 3.5. They are magic items that require miracle or wish (and cash and XP) to create. Not the same thing, IMO, and not a valid inference, also IMO. So the rest of your question, to me, becomes moot, sorry.

Regarding my own question, I concede my inference regarding the Tomes may be inaccurate given their brief description, however the question remains valid. Namely, what seems a reasonable level for a spell specifically granting a permanent +1 inherent bonus given WOTC states a second level spell can grant a temporary +4 enhancement bonus?

Reducing the second level spell's bonus from +4 to +1 easily qualifies it for 1st level, so adding a level to change it from an Enhancement to an Inherent bonus and two more levels for the permanentness to make it a 5th level seems reasonable given the guidelines set forth in the Wish spell; however I was curious about the group's consensus.
 

I'm sure there are other examples, but the one I was thinking of was Koko the low-land gorilla whose trainers (and numerous independent scholars) confirmed not only mastered American Sign Language and had independently created NEW words, but IRC taught several enclosure-mates to sign -- quite impressive for a "clever" animal and demonstrative of real language use; unless one disqualifies ASL as a "language"??
I was trying to avoid this by saying "aside," but fine: whether these apes use real language is (1) entirely separate from what ASL is and is not, and (2) entirely the question. The last time I looked into the matter, I found the consensus on whether apes can be trained to actually use language, or whether they instead mainly learn a highly complex trick that looks like language to many observers (especially observers who are not linguists, but who are rather primate researchers emotionally and financially invested in the "success" of their subjects), was far from absolute.

In particular, I remember it being noted that ASL users regard ape-sign language as a series of gestures that resembles ASL, but that isn't, really, and that "mastery" of ASL was regarded as probably beyond any of the apes studied to that point. After all, to master a human language one must exhibit abstract thinking, and this has not been shown in an ape, to my knowledge. Overall, I subscribe to the view that while advanced primates run the gamut from clever to astonishingly clever, one must be very forgiving, and slightly flexible, to seriously assert that apes can "speak" or "read." Don't believe everything you read from Koko's publicity.

In any event, we are crossing the "real world" and "fantasy world" streams here, and that always gives me an unpleasant twinge. Suffice to say that even if it were unequivocal that at least some great apes can be trained to use actual language (as opposed to stringing together gestures that have meaning to their handlers, which not even all apes undergoing language studies seem to do), I don't feel it would be thematically appropriate in the first place in a fantasy game. In fantasy, one thing that separates the class of "normal animals" from that of "sapient creatures" is true language (something decidedly more complex than "give banana" style pidgin language, which even the most generous ape-language researchers admit is all apes seem able to manage). Take Narnia as but one example.

So I stand by what I said. My ruling would be that if you awaken the animal it can "upgrade" to "real" language use. (Paladin mounts and arcane familiars are magical beasts, not animals.)

... what seems a reasonable level for a spell specifically granting a permanent +1 inherent bonus given WOTC states a second level spell can grant a temporary +4 enhancement bonus?
9th. There's nothing in the description of wish or miracle that makes me think either is limited to lower-level effects. Replicating lower-level effects is only one trick those spells can achieve. Another is provide a +1 permanent inherent ability score bonus -- and miracle can't even do that unless it's in line with the granting deity's oeuvre. And you spend the same 5,000 XP for the effect, either way.
 
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This is one of those situations where I would have to extrapolate the rules, but I think it is reasonable. Consider the following:

1) A creature must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher to take class levels.
2) Only creatures with Intelligence scores of 3 or higher are ever noted (as far as I can tell) as being able to speak or understand any language.
3) The rules also state that an Intelligence of 1-2 is considered "animal intelligence."

Therefore I would find it reasonable that any creature with an Int of 3+ could be taught to read. Unless the creature took a level of a PC class (which automatically grants literacy per RAW), I would require the creature spend two skill points to learn a language (not a class skill), then spend two skill points to gain literacy (just like a Barbarian). Also note that just because a creature can read doesn't mean it can communicate. D&D does have some basis for expecting that biology matters when considering whether a creature can or can't talk. So just because the creature can read doesn't mean it can express what it has read to others.
 

Thanks for the responses everyone!

This is sort of just a thought exercise at this point, but I would like to use it in a campaign sometime.

I'm not really going to reply to the great apes and ASL debate happening above because those are real world examples and this is D&D we're talking about here... If a barbarian with Int 5 can learn to read with 2 skill points, surely a Griffon with Int 5 can as well was more my thinking. I just wasn't sure if there were any rules related to it that I was missing. Especially since it states in the MM that a Griffon can understand common already.

I agree though airwalkrr, the animal wouldn't be able speak unless you did something else magical to it like cast Awaken, but that defeats the whole purpose behind this thought excercise because then they wouldn't be able to serve as a special mount or animal companion per Awaken's text.

The idea is to increase your animal companion's ability to think/reason so they are better in combat and don't necessarily need to be told exactly what to do... if they can read, then they can read a Tome which with a high level paladin's mount means you can get them up to a 14 Int

If you really want to cheese it up and you have levels to spare in a gestalt game or something and you're DM allowed it for sheer cheek, you could take Pal 5, Dru 5, Halfling Outrider 10, Wild Plains Outrider 3, Wiz 1, Arcane Hierophant 10 (mix how you will)...with Devoted Tracker... BAM! A Special Mount Companion Familiar with all the abilities and stat increases of a Paladin 18 special mount, a Druid 15-18 (depending on how you stagger levels) Animal Companion, and a Wizard 11 Familiar... most importantly for this discussion, you've got an Int 9 and Speak with Master. Throw a Tome in there and you have a Mount that probably has more tactical sense than the Barbarian in your party...
 

Maybe we should just open the Monster Manual.

Monster Manual 3.5 said:
Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.... (No creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or more can be an animal.)
Griffons are magical beasts. [EDIT: Reading back, I notice the OP didn't mention any creatures that were animals. So for my part, I apologize for the pointless tangent.]

Or maybe the Player's Handbook.

Player's Handbook 3.5 said:
Awaken .... An awakened animal... becomes [a] magical beast (augmented animal).
I have no issue with teaching sufficiently intelligent magical beasts to read. [EDIT: I would, however, also require that the creature cough up at least two skill points (possibly four, as above, but griffons already understand Common, so might be said to "know" it already) -- and a magical beast straight from the MM has already spent them all, so AFAICT we're talking either HD increase or permanent INT increase. What's good for the barbarian....]

[FURTHER EDIT: Just for completeness's sake, I'll note that a druid's animal companion is treated as a magical beast only for effects that depend on its type; it also doesn't get an INT boost. I would posit that if a druid animal companion's type is changed to magical beast somehow (as with awaken, or by becoming some other sort of companion creature), it can't serve as a druid's animal companion anymore (awaken explicitly includes this restriction). Devoted Tracker specifically works only with paladin mount/ranger animal companion. I don't really see how the same creature could also be your familiar and your druid animal companion.]

[FURTHER FURTHER EDIT: And finally, to actually answer the OP's original question, if you do manage to end up with a literate mount, I guess it could read and benefit from a tome or manual the same as a literate PC.]
 
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[FURTHER EDIT: Just for completeness's sake, I'll note that a druid's animal companion is treated as a magical beast only for effects that depend on its type; it also doesn't get an INT boost. I would posit that if a druid animal companion's type is changed to magical beast somehow (as with awaken, or by becoming some other sort of companion creature), it can't serve as a druid's animal companion anymore (awaken explicitly includes this restriction). Devoted Tracker specifically works only with paladin mount/ranger animal companion. I don't really see how the same creature could also be your familiar and your druid animal companion.]

A Paladin's Mount also is treated as a Magical Beast for all effects related to type, so I guess that is real key, anything that has INT over 3 is no longer an animal, but a magical beast and you could teach a magical beast to read, but not an animal.

As for devoted tracker, it may be semantics or RAW vs RAI, but it never states in the section related to Animal Companion that it must be an animal companion from your Ranger class abilities, so a Druid with Track could take the feat and benefit from the animal companion section as well. All it says is "if you have an animal companion". Whereas the other two sections dealing with multiclassing and other ability stacking specifically mention "ranger". I.e. "ranger levels stack" and "you may multiclass freely between paladin and ranger".

As to how it could be all three... I guess it depends on your view of Devoted Tracker, but I've never heard anyone interpret that as only Ranger on the animal companion portion. If you do... moot point.

If you don't, then a special mount = animal companion based on that feat. Throw a level of wizard or sorcerer in there and then take the Arcane Hierophant class which allows you to treat your animal companion as a familiar for special abilities (not Int or Nat Armor) and viola, A Special Familiar Companion Mount.
 

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