Interchangable class features

[Rawion]

Just thought of this while playing around with build ideas. What would need to be done in order to balance interchanging class features? such as giving a ranger the furious counterstrike ability, or other abilities like mettle, smite evil, animal companion, etc. I think they're too powerful to be feats, so maybe lose a hit die? but that seems too much... I dunno. Would it just be a case by case basis?

 

[CapnZapp]

You're effectively asking about a class-less point-buy system.

And the answer is "no, any such system would very probably be broken to the bone".

 

[Umbran]

I don't agree that "any such system would be broken to the bone". There are ways to keep point-buy systems from being broken.

However, building one is a tough piece of work. I don't think I'd want to try to break down D&D and rebuild it in such a way, simply from the standpoint that it takes so much effort for minimal improvement in the system.

 

[tyrlaan]

Have you checked out Mutant's and Masterminds? You could probably use the rules to build out all the classes and abilities and then let people pick up what they want within a point cap.

Or, there's an OGL product out there who's name is escaping me that's point buy DnD more or less (I'm sure a fellow ENWorlder can help out with the name of this). Seemed quite complex, but then it's hard not to be complex when converting a class system into a robust point-buy system. This one would work too.

Any way you slice it, I agree with Umbran. Building this out won't be easy. Unless my second recommendation gives you everything you need without needing to do much else.

 

[Dimitri Mazieres]

Wasn't there a 3rd party product named "Buy The Numbers" or such like, that detailed a point-buy system for classes?

Edit: Aha! Here it is! Maybe you can get some ideas out of it.

 

[Dausuul]

It could theoretically be done, but it would be a hell of a lot of work - not something you could hack out in a week or two. I would suggest looking at the hybrid class system as a model.

...Honestly, I don't think it'd be worth the effort for D&D as it stands. Maybe with a system built from the ground up to accommodate it.

(Oops, you're talking about 3E, aren't you? My mistake. Well, disregard the bit about the hybrid class system, but the rest of my statement stands. As I recall, TSR actually tried to do something like this in 2E and it was a horrible mess.)

 

[Nifft]

Just thought of this while playing around with build ideas. What would need to be done in order to balance interchanging class features? such as giving a ranger the furious counterstrike ability, or other abilities like mettle, smite evil, animal companion, etc. I think they're too powerful to be feats, so maybe lose a hit die? but that seems too much... I dunno. Would it just be a case by case basis?

Class Features?
Features...
Feats!


- - -

My point is that clearly, some stuff is already modularized. However: D&D is, at heart, a game of classes and levels -- those are the things that can't ever change. Class + level must always be short-hand for what kind of dude you are, and a measure of how badass a dude you are.

There are lots of classless, modular systems out there. I'd highly recommend looking at a few of those, and maybe seeing if they suit your fancy.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Celebrim]

Have you checked out Mutant's and Masterminds?

Yes, and from what I've seen, there is nothing remotely balanced about it. It works fine if the characters are willing to rely on concept and not abuse it, but it looked completely breakable to me.

I've never seen a remotely balanced point buy system. They all rely on the player to not break the game as part of their social contract.