Interesting comment from a player

[the Jester]

Last session (well, the one before tonight's game), one of the pcs met an npc who was looking to sell some magic items. One of these was a ring of water breathing. The pc managed to talk him into trading said ring straight across for a "potion of longevity" (actually a potion of spider climb with a great Bluff check opposed by an awful Sense Motive).

Tonight, the player made a comment that many, perhaps most, dms wouldn't have let that happen, regardless of the dice- the npc wouldn't have fallen for that kind of trick.

What do you say? Players, do you feel that your pcs could pull this off given good rolls? Dms, would you allow this kind of thing to happen?

 

[Bagpuss]

Yeah, why not?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Figure if they've got the skills, then I'd let it happen... they invested in them after all and I'd say that's what the skills for... On the other hand, I'd view it as a bit of an 'open season' on the player for that sort of behaviour.

The trick would be discovered at some point and the revenge would be fun... Figure the aging archmage who bought the potion would be the best candidate. He desperately wants a potion of longevity and the PC will acquire him one. Woo! Got a senile old coot with kewl powerz on your case.

 

[Zappo]

I wouldn't - not because of the metagaming consideration that PCs shouldn't get items that easily, but just because of common sense. I don't know the value of a ring of water breathing, but a ring of water walking is 15000 and fairly similar in power level. The NPC was tricked into believing that he was getting a potion worth at least as much. Now, 15000 is enough to buy a good ship, a house, or to live reasonably well for the rest of your life if you're careful about spending. In modern times, it would equate something on the order of one million dollars. There is simply no way (short of mind-influencing supernatural effects) that anyone in my campaigns would accept such a trade without having someone trusted identify the item first, even if he was personally convinced that the deal is true.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Figure if they've got the skills, then I'd let it happen... they invested in them after all and I'd say that's what the skills for... On the other hand, I'd view it as a bit of an 'open season' on the player for that sort of behaviour.

ditto.

 

[IronWolf]

Depending on the NPC in question I would let it happen. If the NPC dealt with trading all of the time and was in a big city I would assume he would have access to someone who uses Identify as part of his check of items. Obviously if the items being traded are of high enough value it is probably standard practice for said NPC to verify what he is receiving. Now that's not to say all NPC's are smart enough to include that in their standard practice. Of course too many trades like that and that NPC will soon be out of business.

 

[Bagpuss]

In modern times, it would equate something on the order of one million dollars. There is simply no way (short of mind-influencing supernatural effects) that anyone in my campaigns would accept such a trade without having someone trusted identify the item first, even if he was personally convinced that the deal is true.

And yet in modern times, you hear on the news people loosing thousands of dollars to scam artists. There is a sucker born every minute. If one guy aces his Bluff and the other guy radically fails his Sense Movtive, then you've found yourself a sucker.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I wouldn't - not because of the metagaming consideration that PCs shouldn't get items that easily, but just because of common sense. I don't know the value of a ring of water breathing, but a ring of water walking is 15000 and fairly similar in power level. The NPC was tricked into believing that he was getting a potion worth at least as much. Now, 15000 is enough to buy a good ship, a house, or to live reasonably well for the rest of your life if you're careful about spending. In modern times, it would equate something on the order of one million dollars. There is simply no way (short of mind-influencing supernatural effects) that anyone in my campaigns would accept such a trade without having someone trusted identify the item first, even if he was personally convinced that the deal is true.

That makes sense...

Although I figure, even in modern times, people get suckered into parting with huge amounts of money in frauds? That company who 'bought the eifle tower for scrap' is a good example. (even if it's probably an urban legend?)

I'd say with a good enough bluff check, the buyer would view the bluffer as someone they trusted enough to do the Identify... OTOH, it'd just make them madder when they found out they've been cheated.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Depends on the game really. In the one I'm currently running, that's acceptable, as one of the overriding attributes of the game is that the PC's are just really ridiculously awesome. So it fits the attributes of the game. But it would come back around to the PC's, in the form of a general repuatation hit (It may not always be realistic, but people tend to get a 'feel' for how the PC's acted previously).

However, in future games I run, it'll be less of an issue. Less magical item trading overall, and re-inturpurting the way money/loot works seems to have given me an answer I like. Having a couple of sources for exchange of goods and services for credit makes each individual one more important.

But it could still happen.

 

[delericho]

Consequences...

Sure, I'd let that stand. (Of course, it would have to be a truly remarkable Bluff roll - the Bluff is pretty hard to believe, and so I'd award the merchant a +10 or even +20 bonus on the Sense Motive roll - per the PHB p.68)

Of course, the characters then have to deal with the consequences of their actions:

1) There's a probable alignment violate here for any Good or Lawful PC - they've just robbed an (assumed) innocent of a hugely valuable item. Certainly, this is an Evil action - hurting others for one's own gain. It's also a Chaotic action, as an expression of personal freedom at the cost of trustworthiness.

2) The merchant obviously didn't Identify the potion they sold him. Did the PC's Identify the ring they bought in turn? Who's to say they didn't get ripped off?

3) The con will eventually be discovered. This then leads to all sorts of fun opportunities. If the merchant was at all reputable, the PCs have just sullied their reputations in the town where the trade took place, and are unlikely to be able to buy any goods and services there except in hard cash, and probably with a hefty mark-up, if at all.

If the merchant was not reputable, of course, he most likely has access to the underworld, and is likely to be sending bounty hunters/assassins/debt collectors after the PCs.

And bear in mind that any merchant who deals in magical rings must have some considerable clout, or else he'd quickly be robbed and/or dead. Frankly, the PCs are likely soon going to be wishing they'd just paid the asking price in the first place.