Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Interesting Decisions vs Wish Fulfillment (from Pulsipher)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Libramarian" data-source="post: 6341744" data-attributes="member: 6688858"><p>Good post! I think that's right.</p><p></p><p>The tradeoff for tightening the feedback loop is that the drama of the game is spread out more evenly among all the decisions, rather than being all bunched up at the end of a series of decisions with a looser feedback loop.</p><p></p><p>It's kind of like basketball vs. association football, to describe CaS and CaW as two sports (and hopefully make <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?996-Tony-Vargas" target="_blank"><strong>Tony Vargas</strong></a> feel better).</p><p></p><p>CaS = basketball. Each team takes ~80 shots a game, hitting around half of them. The winner is the team that is slightly stingier on defense and/or slightly more efficient on offense. Consequently each make/miss is not in itself very dramatic (at least until the game comes down to the wire). Feedback loops are short; most of the good plays directly lead to a bucket or missed chance for the other team. It's easy to spot the good plays but harder to spot the good players because there are so many good plays in each game by various players (as in baseball, you need to use statistical analysis to accurately rank the non-star players...but I digress).</p><p></p><p>CaW = association football. Each team only gets a handful of scoring chances per game, so they're full of drama. When a player misses a good chance it's like that Simpsons' episode where Lisa rejects Ralph Wiggum: if you play it in slow motion you can pinpoint the second his heart rips in half. Scoring chances are created like a glass of water tipping over: at first somebody on defense makes a slight, seemingly innocuous mistake, but then you realize that an offensive player happened to be in just the right place to take advantage, and he makes a good pass...and you sit up straighter and straighter as it dawns on you that this is snowballing to a scoring chance. Feedback loops are sloppy: many, many passes are made between scoring chances that don't seem to have any obvious purpose. It's hard to see the value of most individual plays but at the end of a match one or two players get most of the glory.</p><p></p><p>Basketball is more of a designer sport. The rules committee debates things like whether or not the 3 point line should be moved back another two feet to incentivize more mid-range shots, or whether the shot clock should be reduced or extended another few seconds. Association football is more organic: very simple rules-wise with very interesting emergent properties. The play is sloppier but the rules are more elegant.</p><p></p><p>Can't say that I love every edition of D&D but I do love watching both basketball and association football.</p><p></p><p>In the football leagues in Europe the team at the bottom of the standings moves down a division next season, which I also love. Level drain<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devil.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":devil:" title="Devil :devil:" data-shortname=":devil:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Libramarian, post: 6341744, member: 6688858"] Good post! I think that's right. The tradeoff for tightening the feedback loop is that the drama of the game is spread out more evenly among all the decisions, rather than being all bunched up at the end of a series of decisions with a looser feedback loop. It's kind of like basketball vs. association football, to describe CaS and CaW as two sports (and hopefully make [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?996-Tony-Vargas"][B]Tony Vargas[/B][/URL] feel better). CaS = basketball. Each team takes ~80 shots a game, hitting around half of them. The winner is the team that is slightly stingier on defense and/or slightly more efficient on offense. Consequently each make/miss is not in itself very dramatic (at least until the game comes down to the wire). Feedback loops are short; most of the good plays directly lead to a bucket or missed chance for the other team. It's easy to spot the good plays but harder to spot the good players because there are so many good plays in each game by various players (as in baseball, you need to use statistical analysis to accurately rank the non-star players...but I digress). CaW = association football. Each team only gets a handful of scoring chances per game, so they're full of drama. When a player misses a good chance it's like that Simpsons' episode where Lisa rejects Ralph Wiggum: if you play it in slow motion you can pinpoint the second his heart rips in half. Scoring chances are created like a glass of water tipping over: at first somebody on defense makes a slight, seemingly innocuous mistake, but then you realize that an offensive player happened to be in just the right place to take advantage, and he makes a good pass...and you sit up straighter and straighter as it dawns on you that this is snowballing to a scoring chance. Feedback loops are sloppy: many, many passes are made between scoring chances that don't seem to have any obvious purpose. It's hard to see the value of most individual plays but at the end of a match one or two players get most of the glory. Basketball is more of a designer sport. The rules committee debates things like whether or not the 3 point line should be moved back another two feet to incentivize more mid-range shots, or whether the shot clock should be reduced or extended another few seconds. Association football is more organic: very simple rules-wise with very interesting emergent properties. The play is sloppier but the rules are more elegant. Can't say that I love every edition of D&D but I do love watching both basketball and association football. In the football leagues in Europe the team at the bottom of the standings moves down a division next season, which I also love. Level drain:devil: [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Interesting Decisions vs Wish Fulfillment (from Pulsipher)
Top