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Interesting Decisions vs Wish Fulfillment (from Pulsipher)
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6345803" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Well, there are issues here about scene-reframing. I'm still not sure why "open-ended" is being treated as equivalent to "can reframe scenes". (In a typical A&D game, the players can't just collapse the multiverse with a few well-placed Unravel Spacetime spells, after all - that is, they can't just reframe the whole campaign at will.)</p><p></p><p>But once the issue of scene reframing is put to one side, I don't see why not. If the game includes that sort of transmutation magic, then why can't it be used?</p><p></p><p>Here is an <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog" target="_blank">actual play report from my 4e game</a>, of the PCs' assaul on Torog's Soul Abattoir. They used magic to dam the flow of souls, as part of their assault:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The drow sorcerer and tiefling paladin flew to the bottom of the cliff, where the paladin blew his Fire Horn to render the ice more susceptible to heat, while the drow cast Flame Spiral to melt some of the ice, and then cast Wall of Water to block the flow of souls (check-wise, this was an Arcana check by the player of the drow, with a buff from the melting of the ice and use of the wall)</p><p></p><p>They also used Wizard's Curtain to get an ambush advantage against Torog:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">They made some preparations, in the form of powering up with Wrath of the Gods (+8 to damage) and also preparing a Wizard's Curtain to improve their chances of hiding in the opening round. The sorcerer also got ready to lay down his auto-damage zone for when Torog broke through from beneath the tunnel floor. (Successful Dungeoneering from the ranger had revealed the direction Torog was coming from.)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">. . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The first attack of the combat was delivered by the paladin, who critted with Strength of Ten to push Torog back down (allowing other party members to stay hidden behind the Wizard's Curtain for an extra turn while they took their attacks).</p><p></p><p>They also used their various mobility options to significant effect:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">I had Torog burst up from beneath the tunnel floor, creating a 130' rift splitting the tunnel in two. That worked fairly well for Torog - with his CB 20 slide 5 attack, he was able to knock first the paladin down, then the ranger, sorcerer and invoker, and then the paladin again . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The paladin survived the first fall fine, and was able to fly back up when the ranger threw down his flying carpet. But it wasn't long before he was knocked back down again.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The 130' fall would have killed the invoker, who was already unconscious from other damage taken, but the ranger managed to grab hold of him as he fell beside him (successful Acro check) and then between his strong Acro and amulet of reducing falling distance (I can't remember its proper name) kept the damage they both took to 20 hp only.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">And the sorcerer's Acro kept him alive too.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Regrouping at the bottom of the pit while the fighter solo-ed Torog (using second wind to get +8 to all defences, with a Defending polearm, which meant that Torog missed at least two of three attacks, making for another ineffectual turn), the ranger-cleric healed them all with a Word of Vigour. The invoker-wizard then leapt onto the carpet (which the paladin had readied for him), flew up with a double move and opened an Arcane Gate linking the bottom of the pit to its top. The others rushed through and Torog was dead.</p><p></p><p>4e is supposedly the poster-child for "CaS" in contrast to "CaW". Presumably, therefore, the various events I've just described are examples of CaS. But they don't strike me as lacking open-ended options. Unless, by "open-ended" is meant "scene reframing".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6345803, member: 42582"] Well, there are issues here about scene-reframing. I'm still not sure why "open-ended" is being treated as equivalent to "can reframe scenes". (In a typical A&D game, the players can't just collapse the multiverse with a few well-placed Unravel Spacetime spells, after all - that is, they can't just reframe the whole campaign at will.) But once the issue of scene reframing is put to one side, I don't see why not. If the game includes that sort of transmutation magic, then why can't it be used? Here is an [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog]actual play report from my 4e game[/url], of the PCs' assaul on Torog's Soul Abattoir. They used magic to dam the flow of souls, as part of their assault: [indent]The drow sorcerer and tiefling paladin flew to the bottom of the cliff, where the paladin blew his Fire Horn to render the ice more susceptible to heat, while the drow cast Flame Spiral to melt some of the ice, and then cast Wall of Water to block the flow of souls (check-wise, this was an Arcana check by the player of the drow, with a buff from the melting of the ice and use of the wall)[/indent] They also used Wizard's Curtain to get an ambush advantage against Torog: [indent]They made some preparations, in the form of powering up with Wrath of the Gods (+8 to damage) and also preparing a Wizard's Curtain to improve their chances of hiding in the opening round. The sorcerer also got ready to lay down his auto-damage zone for when Torog broke through from beneath the tunnel floor. (Successful Dungeoneering from the ranger had revealed the direction Torog was coming from.) . . . The first attack of the combat was delivered by the paladin, who critted with Strength of Ten to push Torog back down (allowing other party members to stay hidden behind the Wizard's Curtain for an extra turn while they took their attacks).[/indent] They also used their various mobility options to significant effect: [indent]I had Torog burst up from beneath the tunnel floor, creating a 130' rift splitting the tunnel in two. That worked fairly well for Torog - with his CB 20 slide 5 attack, he was able to knock first the paladin down, then the ranger, sorcerer and invoker, and then the paladin again . . . The paladin survived the first fall fine, and was able to fly back up when the ranger threw down his flying carpet. But it wasn't long before he was knocked back down again. The 130' fall would have killed the invoker, who was already unconscious from other damage taken, but the ranger managed to grab hold of him as he fell beside him (successful Acro check) and then between his strong Acro and amulet of reducing falling distance (I can't remember its proper name) kept the damage they both took to 20 hp only. And the sorcerer's Acro kept him alive too. Regrouping at the bottom of the pit while the fighter solo-ed Torog (using second wind to get +8 to all defences, with a Defending polearm, which meant that Torog missed at least two of three attacks, making for another ineffectual turn), the ranger-cleric healed them all with a Word of Vigour. The invoker-wizard then leapt onto the carpet (which the paladin had readied for him), flew up with a double move and opened an Arcane Gate linking the bottom of the pit to its top. The others rushed through and Torog was dead.[/indent] 4e is supposedly the poster-child for "CaS" in contrast to "CaW". Presumably, therefore, the various events I've just described are examples of CaS. But they don't strike me as lacking open-ended options. Unless, by "open-ended" is meant "scene reframing". [/QUOTE]
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