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<blockquote data-quote="DWARF" data-source="post: 163549" data-attributes="member: 863">What?!!&nbsp; No, lad.....BronzeDragon, let me get this straight...You're arguement is that at the same CR, dragons are the same difficulty.&nbsp; But isn't that the point of the CR system?&nbsp; Equal CR's make equal difficulty.And if you want different dragons, like a red compared to a white, to be tougher, then why not do what RangerWickett says and try fighting similarily AGED dragons and not similarily CR'ed ones.Using your own words, only a sadistic DM would throw a great wyrm red dragon at the same party as a great wyrm white dragon.&nbsp; And that's BECAUSE Red dragons are tougher!&nbsp; How do you represent this toughness?&nbsp; Up their CR!!!&nbsp; The problem here is you don't get the CR system.&nbsp; If you keep throwing dragons of the same CR at a group, OF COURSE they'll think that they're all the same, they're the same CR!!!Using CR's for NPC's, you'll find the same thing.&nbsp; Using the basic Dwarf as a monster, you'll find that&nbsp; a level 1 dwarf fighter is CR 1.&nbsp; You'll also find that a level 2 dwarf warrior is CR 1 IIRC.&nbsp; Don't come back and complain that fighters and warriors are the same difficulty at the same CR, that's the point!&nbsp; But if you look at them at similar levels (or ages for dragons), then one will undoubtably be tougher than the other.The way they make CR's for monsters is that the monsters, when fighting against an average party, will be pretty much the same difficulty overall at the same CR.&nbsp; The red dragon's toughness is represented in the fact that at the same age, a red is tougher than a white.&nbsp; If it's tougher, then it should have a higher CR.&nbsp; And looky-loo, it does.As for the red being weaker at the same CR as a white, that may be comparing an old red dragon and great wyrm white, but maybe that's because being a great wyrm is supposed to mean they're tough.&nbsp; Try comparing them at similar CR's for other age groups, like young or adult and see what happens.&nbsp; [It's late and I have a Zoology 225 final tomorrow, so I'm not going to look up examples, sorry.]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DWARF, post: 163549, member: 863"] [b]What?!! No, lad.....[/b] BronzeDragon, let me get this straight... You're arguement is that at the same CR, dragons are the same difficulty. But isn't that the point of the CR system? Equal CR's make equal difficulty. And if you want different dragons, like a red compared to a white, to be tougher, then why not do what RangerWickett says and try fighting similarily AGED dragons and not similarily CR'ed ones. Using your own words, only a sadistic DM would throw a great wyrm red dragon at the same party as a great wyrm white dragon. And that's BECAUSE Red dragons are tougher! How do you represent this toughness? Up their CR!!! The problem here is you don't [b]get[/b] the CR system. If you keep throwing dragons of the same CR at a group, OF COURSE they'll think that they're all the same, they're the same CR!!! Using CR's for NPC's, you'll find the same thing. Using the basic Dwarf as a monster, you'll find that a level 1 dwarf fighter is CR 1. You'll also find that a level 2 dwarf warrior is CR 1 IIRC. Don't come back and complain that fighters and warriors are the same difficulty at the same CR, that's the point! But [b]if[/b] you look at them at similar levels (or ages for dragons), then one will undoubtably be tougher than the other. The way they make CR's for monsters is that the monsters, when fighting against an average party, will be pretty much the same difficulty overall at the same CR. The red dragon's toughness is represented in the fact that at the same age, a red is tougher than a white. If it's tougher, then it should have a higher CR. And looky-loo, it does. As for the red being weaker at the same CR as a white, that may be comparing an old red dragon and great wyrm white, but maybe that's because being a great wyrm is supposed to mean they're tough. Try comparing them at similar CR's for other age groups, like young or adult and see what happens. [It's late and I have a Zoology 225 final tomorrow, so I'm not going to look up examples, sorry.] [/QUOTE]

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