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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 2390983" data-attributes="member: 10201">First, a nit-pick: wouldn't it be a one-way mirror? I keep seeing references to "two-way mirrors" in various places, but how are you going to secretly observe someone through a mirror that is reflective on both sides? Surely they (and Ryan in this case) are referring to a mirror that is reflective on one side, and able to be seen through from the other side, or, IOW, a one-way mirror?OK, now on to the substance of the claim:Who was the test group? People experienced with crunchy RPGs? Regular gamers of some sort? Miss Marple fanfic writers? I would not be one bit surprised to discover that those who're used to GURPS or D&D3E or Hero are, in essence, reliant on the rules to resolve disputes. And that those same groups, especially initially, feel like the rules aren't supporting them when first introduced to, say, Over the Edge or Everway or Risus. World-class professional classical musicians often can't do jazz worth a damn at first, if they have no background in improvisation. But, then again, world-class jazz musicians might not be able to just pick up sheet music and sightread it. Doesn't mean either skill is better or worse, or easier or harder, than the other.My anecdotal experience? Those who're experienced RPers, and only used to crunchy systems, often flounder, or argue, or fail to have fun with a rules-lite game. But not always--for some, it's an epiphany, and they either find something they didn't even know they were missing, or decide they like both styles of play for different reasons. Heck, even for me, one of the most anti-crunch people i know (i consider Everway and OtE to be about my ceiling for crunch, generally), both styles of play appeal. [Well, really, i'd say "all styles", since i think this is a false dichotomy that both glosses over the spectrum on this scale, and sets up a false opposition which ignores the many other styles of play that are equally "opposite" to both of them.] Generally, anything crunchier than Over the Edge is too much for me. Except when it isn't. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Then i want Hero, or Spycraft, or something like that.But, with those with no prior experience with RPGs, the reaction to rules-lite games seems to depend on personality, with some definite gender and age trends in evidence. IME (dozens, if not hundreds, of beginners over the years; some friends, most at conventions), college-age+ beginners do better with rules-lite while younger gamers do better with more mechanical structure; women more often find crunchy games to have more detail than they're interested in mastering, while men more often seem to need mechanical detail as a crutch for their creativity; men more often start from the game stats when creating a character, and then see what develops, while women more often have a character concept in mind and then figure out how to get that with the game mechanics. Keep in mind, none of those are absolute statements--just trends i've observed. With numerous exceptions: the 2nd-most hack-n-slash/powergamer RPer i've ever known is female; several of the best rules-heads i know are female; probably the most anti-mechanics RPer i know is male; we've had a couple of first-time RPers in the 10-and-under category that had no problem knowing what to do with minimal rules support; i've known at least one person who first RPed in their late 20s, and didn't really "get it" until we used a crunchier system.Oh, and i have never seen anything crunchy (and anything from Storyteller on up is "crunchy") run as fast as one of our sessions of Dread, or a game of OtE or QAGS or something equally lite. Not saying it can't be done, just that i've seen no evidence of it.</blockquote>

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