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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 2409037" data-attributes="member: 957">No dispute on the different preferences for different people.  But I'd like to throw out my take one your three points.1) I agree that 3E char creation can take longer.  To me that is no problem because I enjoy it.I find the min maxing comment to be a gross generalization that applies to 3E groups no more or no less to another game community.  Rules lite takes away RP customization potential every bit as much as it takes away min max potential.  It cuts both ways.  The "joy" in the ability to crank out a character in 20 minutes and dive back in seems to run exactly contrary to idea of deep role playing.  Your char dies so you crank out another semi-clone and hit the ground running?  I can see the appeal, but I can't see how that makes a more RP less min/max case.2) I agree completely.  Rules lite is an excellent way to get starters in.  Some of your other pro-rules lite people are claiming the exact opposite, that beginners NEED lots of rules and only a "mature" player can handle rules lite. I find that absurd and it appears your experience syncs with mine here.3) I can't even begin to see how number crunching is at odds with role playing.  Again, I can see lots of reasons that groups may not want to use a battle mat, minis, etc...  But that it somehow magically blocks out roleplaying doesn't stand to reason.  My group uses a mat and minis and we have battles that frequently last 2 hours (cutting one down to 15 min would be as gratifying to me, personally, as reading a baseball box score and saying that I saw the game).  And we role play the characters to the hilt, both in and out of battle.  A robust mechanical model of the game world reality in no way detracts from pretenting to be a persona within that world.</blockquote>

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