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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 4453847" data-attributes="member: 42582">Prof Cirno, I assume you know that there are some people who go to arthouse cinemas and pay to see independently-produced films not because they always prefer those particular films to studio-produced ones, but because they support the notion of cultural diversity.I myself subscribe to more political and cultural magazines than I have time to read, in order to support the existence of those magazines.Ron Edwards is suggesting the same sort of outlook for RPGs. That is not remotely absurd or incomprehensible. Do I agree with him? In principle I have some sympathy; in practice I own a lot more mainstream than indie RPGing material, and I don't have a copy of Sorcerer.As to high-octane premises and system ideas - obviously the 4e design team think there's something to be learned about system ideas from indie games, because skill challenges (and, to a lesser extent perhaps, other aspects of the 4e mechanics) incorporate some of those ideas. Likewise the idea of an explicit and metagame-heavy endgame (via Epic Destinies).As to high-octane premises - in my view one thing that Ron Edwards underestimates in his discussion of the role of premise in roleplaying is that in many cases (especially, I think, fantasy RPGing) the premises that are easily addressed are closer to the aesthetic (or perhaps the ethical, in a broad sense of that word - what sort of life can be worthwhile?) than the moral premises that Edwards tends to focus on.I think that 4e is better suited than earlier versions of D&D for addressing these sorts of premises, because the mechanics (of powers) automatically present the PC as a particular sort of heroic figure. Likewise for monsters - their powers automatically present them as a certain sort of villain. I think that these features of the system make an adventure like Heathen (Dungeon 155) more viable in 4e than in earlier versions of D&D (though I still think the designer squibs a bit at the end when he says "If one of the PCs decides to accept Naarash’s offer, the adventure is over and you’re on your own" - some suggestions here would help).Finally, I don't see why it would follow from the fact that RPGs are a hobby that it is silly to try to engage in criticism of them (let alone why it is insulting to you that someone might expect to be taken seriously in doing so). Reading novels is a hobby for some, painting is a hobby for others - it doesn't follow that literary and art criticism are silly, nor that they are insulting to hobbyists. (Btw, do you regard all the langugage of criticism - "modernism", "abstract expressionism", "minimalism", etc - as meaningless, or only its use in the context of RPGs?)Finally, and once again to stay on thread topic, Mearls has some interesting things to say in the podcast about the importance to him of thinking seriously about RPG design.</blockquote>

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