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Message: <blockquote data-quote="77IM" data-source="post: 4825654" data-attributes="member: 12377">The more I think about this, the more I realize that the problem isn't with Intimidate specificially, but with the widely divergent skill bonuses between characters.  Consider, at the Heroic tier, most weapon-wielders will have an attack bonus within 6 points of one another (ability +3 proficiency +2, vs. ability +5 proficiency +3 class weapon talent +1 feat +1 magic item higher than the other guy +1).  So enemy defenses tend to cluster within that range as well; a first level foe with AC 19, for example, will be hit by the lousy guy 35% of the time and by the awesome guy 65% of the time.  So as long as the guy hitting half as often is also doing more damage (or having some other effect) it should work out over time.But with Intimidate, and other skills, the gap at 1st level can be as high as 19 (ability -1, vs.ability +5 trained +5 racial +2 feat +3 background +2 item +1).  It's even worse for skills with armor check penalty.  This makes it very difficult to set a reasonable DC for the skill:  at DC 19, the lousy character only succeeds on a 20 and the awesome character can't fail; at DC 20, the lousy character can't succeed and the awesome character only fails on a 1.  So if the awesome guy has any chance for failure at all, the lousy guy can't possibly succeed.  If you consider a reasonably average guy (ability +3 trained +5; or ability +4 racial +2; or something, let's just call it 7), he's still 11 points behind the awesome guy.  So a DC 23, the average guy succeeds only 25% of the time, and the awesome guy succeeds 80% of the time.  For something as powerful as taking an enemy out of the fight instantly (which is the strictest reading of Intimidate), that's a huge probability gap.  It's like the old 3e bard who could Diplomacy a dragon into surrendering.I don't know how to fix this problem without house rules.  It's worse because it only appears when you have a certain type of min-maxer (for example, there is a guy at my table whose Perception and Stealth are through the roof -- fortunately he is an eladrin wizard so that curbs some of the excess).  I've already house ruled that the +2 background bonus can't apply to trained skills (the last thing I want is people selecting the background that allows them to increase a maxxed skill), and it looks like I might do something similar to familiars (or maybe make it a feat bonus). -- 77IM</blockquote>

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