Intimidate: too easy?

[Kid Charlemagne]

I agree that the effects of Intimidation are a little nebulous, therefore difficult to handle...

You should check out the Heroes of High Favor: Half-Orcs, by Badass Games (run by our very own Wulf Ratbane), which is due out pretty soon. I got to playtest parts of it, and one of the things it has that I really liked was a system for what actually happens when you're intimidated. The SRD just says "can change others' behavior with a successful check." What the heck does that mean?

The rules in HoHF:Half-Orcs give results, scaling upward from the base 10+HD result on up. Results range from Shaken (standard definition) and up. I think they're pretty well done. An intimidating guy will get a benefit if he intimidates in combat, but not an earth-shattering one. It still doesn't detail it in any RP way, unfortunately, which would be really handy.

I'd give more detail, but I don't want to just take a table from a book that's not out yet and plop it into a thread.

 

[Al]

I use a Will save + level for the DC. At low-levels, this means that it's more or less in line with the PHB. At high-levels, it becomes much more difficult to intimidate an opponent of equal level. This is intended: a 1st level rogue should have an easier time intimidating a 1st level guard than a 20th level rogue intimidate the arch-nemesis.

As for the 'it should be easy to Intimidate', I say nonsense. You can blither about logic and roleplaying for as long as you like, but the fact is that it doesn't *balance*.

Consider the 4th level bard with 7 ranks, +3 charisma, +2 feat and +2 synergy. Skill check +14. So, he has a 50/50 chance of intimidating a character of 15th level. He cannot fail to intimidate anyone one level higher than himself.

Consider the 8th level bard with 11 ranks, +5 charisma, +2 feat and +2 synergy. Skill check +20. The probability is in his favour that he intimidates a 20th level character. He has a 70% chance of intimidating a character who can wield Time Stops or Miracles. On a roll of a 1, he intimidates successfully a character three levels higher than him.

Fact is, at the current, Intimidate doesn't make sense. Bluff is all well and good, but Bluff is incorporated into Intimidate (hence the synergy bonus). Otherwise, the 1st level character could simply Bluff himself as a 20th level wizard and send the shivers into anyone. Intimidate covers scaring people; Bluff covers deceiving them. There is an overlap, but it's covered. That's why I don't buy the various explanations offered here.

 

[drnuncheon]

Maybe the rogue is a doppleganger. Or a demon lord under disguise... The point is that's intimidation. The idea to scare people off with words.

Of course that's intimidation. I never said it wasn't. What I said was that it's too easy.

Don't you think mariliths - the generals of the Abyssal armies, the second most powerful demons in the book - ought to be just a leetle bit hard to intimidate? Don't you think it's a little bit much that a first level character (Cha 10 & 4 ranks) can do it 25% of the time? One time in four! My god, no wonder the demons can't win the Blood War, the devils just send out some low-level schmoe out to scare them off.

I understand the idea of intimidate, but I think that's taking things a little too far. You can say "maybe this" and "maybe that" all you want, but it boils down to the fact that a first level character can make a CR 17 creature back down.

I mean, Jeez, does he get XP for that? Are mariliths in your campaign quaking nervous wrecks, afraid to menace anyone because they might be a disguised demon lord? Is it really that far out to think that the ability to stare down a demon ought to come at a slightly higher level?

You could give a +X circumstance (rather a penality to the intimidate check...) bonus on anyone who has a supernatural/spell-like/extraordinary ability. Etc.

Yes, thank you. That's kind of what I started this thread to discuss. I suppose in retrospect it should probably have gone in House Rules, but I wanted to see if I was missing something in the actual rules first. So far, it seems I'm not...

J

 

[ForceUser]

I've been considering altering the way Intimidation works. First off, it would be a cross-class skill for everyone. You make a roll to set a DC for your target's Will save equal to your roll on the die plus your Intimidation score. If he makes his save, he realizes you're trying to back him down and reacts appropriately. If he fails, he's cowed at the moment, but may hold a grudge. This way, it's harder to intimidate high level characters.

Just something I'm tinkering with in my head.

 

[Corlon]

or...

You could rule that people can't be intimidated. Or you can ask the intimidater how he intimidates them. In my campaign, the female halfling bard (level 1) tried to intimidate Krendar, the hobbgobling that carries around a double murcurial bastard sword (house rule that requires a bunch of feats). He worships the great mother, and when the bard tried to intimidate him with death, he just spat in the bard's face and said "the Great Mother will just bring me back like she did the last time"

This was after the hobbgolbin was captured.

I like the "the person is shaken rule" myself.

 

[drnuncheon]

I've been considering altering the way Intimidation works. First off, it would be a cross-class skill for everyone. You make a roll to set a DC for your target's Will save equal to your roll on the die plus your Intimidation score. If he makes his save, he realizes you're trying to back him down and reacts appropriately. If he fails, he's cowed at the moment, but may hold a grudge. This way, it's harder to intimidate high level characters.

Just something I'm tinkering with in my head.

I was actually thinking something similar (at least, something incorporating Will saves). Just replacing the HD with Will save makes the problem worse, though, since most people's Will saves are lower than their HD.

Let's check your way though. Same 1st level rogue vs. marilith, only now he only has Intimidate +2 (since it's cross-class.) An average roll of 10 means the Will save DC is 12...and the Marilith (+10 will save) only fails on a 1 or 2 (10% chance). That's much better - still a little high for my taste but the granularity of the system is coming into play. That same character would have a little better than 50/50 chance of intimidating an ogre, which is fine - they're big & dumb and more likely to fall for that sort of thing. (Although if you don't care for that, give the ogre a bonus for being bigger than the PC. In fact, that's not a bad idea in general - it's hard to intimidate someone you have to crane your neck back to look at.)

If he were a 17th level character (Intimidate +10), the DC would be 20, and he'd be able to intimidate the Marilith half the time - which is about right, since he could theoretically beat her about half the time too.

J