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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4258439" data-attributes="member: 2011">The problem is not the rule.The problem is the math behind the rule.D20 + Ability Score + Magic + 5 (Trained) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 1/2 level >= DC of 10 + Ability Score + Magic + 1/2 level meansD20 >= DC 2No matter how that is sliced, it forces the DM (or WotC) to add something to the 2 DC in order to make the math work.In this case, WotC added bonuses such +10 Hostile, +5 Unknown Language, etc. +10 and +5 modifiers are HUGE in a D20 system.So, D20 >= DC 12 or D20 >= DC 17But it adds a lot of modifiers to the right hand side of the equation, just to balance out the math against a trained opponent.Sure, a DM can make adjustments to this as you state.The issue is, he shouldn't have to. Skills versus Defenses should work WITHOUT having to add a bunch of really big (+5 or +10) modifiers to the Defense side of the equation. When one does that, it means that without both Training and Skill Focus, the PC attempting can almost never succeed.e.g. D20 >= DC 20 (Hostile), DC 25 (Hostile and Unknown language)Bottom line, the base untrained equation (D20 >= 10) for Skill vs. Defense is bad to begin with (considering the effect of surrender 55% of the time versus untrained, that's a big gain for a single 55% die chance), the bonuses for Trained and Skill Focus are too large (in a D20 system, +5 and +3), and the bonuses for situation (Hostile and Unknown Language, to offset the bad equation and Training) are too large (+5 to +15).The concept that many (non- to hit) D20 or DC modifiers should be +5 is a really bad design decision. I have not yet read the rules, but I suspect that there are a lot of +5 modifiers in the Skill section.The vast majority of modifiers in the game system should be +1 or +2, not +3 or +5. Game design Math 101.For a company who made so many claims about fixing the math, the Skill vs. Defense obviously bad math is a glaring example of the hype not matching the reality. That's not good.</blockquote>

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