Intrigue equals ambushes? (minor spoilers for Dungeon/Campaign book adventures)

[Graf]

This isn't meant to be an Eberron hater post...
(I'm fairly positive on the setting right now)

I assume that the first few official adventures that come out are supposed to capture the themes of a new campaign world. The word intrigue comes up a lot in the Eberron book, "you don't know who's on your side, and who isn't" type stuff. The characters run through the whole game and discover at the end that x was actually y, or they've been duped.

The adventure in the campaign book and Dungeon are pretty much straight forward DnD adventures with one exception: Lots and lots of people ambushing the PCs.

[Aside] In my experience there is nothing players hate so much as being ambushed, AKA attacked without warning (i.e. a round or less) by somebody they know little or nothing about or are poorly prepared to deal with at that time.
People don't get to use their special powers, they often have weak tactical positions, or use their powers ineffectually.
Generally in my experience this leads to an unplesant table dynamic. The attack has happend, the characters are engaged in a frentic battle and making snap decisiions. Meanwhile players are stalling, asking lots of questions and generally trying to buy time and tease out hints about the bad guys powers.

It's not that I don't do ambushes, (I do) but I tend to feel that it's a cheap way to create suspense. The players are forced into a passive role in the game; if they use a lot of resources, or are prevented from doing what they were trying to do in the first place they feel thwarted. If ambushes happen a lot people tend to get jaded about the whole thing.
[/aside]

Anyway, the campaign setting is a bit worse than the adventure in Dungeon but they both involve a lot of ambushing AND don't have much intrigue.
Suspense is built through two irritating 'tricks' both of which are overused: the aforementioned ambush and the "then the person who approached the PCs and made a cryptic delivery of boxed text wanders off and they can't go after them".
The second one is even more irritating that the ambushes. The adventures make it clear that the PCs can't get more about the story now, they have to wait, and they can't follow the NPC as they "disappear into the crowds".

Furthermore everyone who appears in the adventures is basically what they say they are, there's an exception or two in Dungeon but as it's written the people who players are naturallyg going to expect to be evil types generally are. Everybody else is up front about what they're up to shot term and vague about their long term goals.
[font size="1"]Spoiler (highlight to see):[/font]
Though it may just be me but "the noble guy who hired you is evil" is about the most common "gotcha" there is. And the agent of the Emerald Claw who approaches them is typically "evil". He shows up, offers gold for a lost item in an appropriatly vague and sinister way and then fades away. I don't think people will be surprised when he shows up later to attack.

Furthermore all of the evil NPCs are just that: evil villians who are out to trick, steal from and/or kill the PCs. The PCs who wander around on "detect evil" "kill evil" mode will do better than playing "in-genre".

Obviously: There is nothing terrible about the adventures as generic DnD adventures (except for the incessant ambushing). People are free to play games they like, and you can easily take the pieces in the adventure and change the motiviations of the players so that there are people with hidden agendas or things aren't what they expect.

Or maybe I just have a different idea of what intrigue means.

 

[Oghma]

Intrigue, to me, does involve things that characters don't know, but it doesn't necessarily mean things they can't find out . It means that things aren't always as they seem, and motives may be more complicated that they were first led to believe.

Characters generally have to take a step back and say "wait a minute..." and that is not always common. Many players are spoiling for a fight, so they miss the clues that would give away an impending ambush.

Social characters are built for this kind of thing, however. Sense Motive, Innuendo, Gather Information, Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Knowledge(local) are all skills that could be used by an intelligent player to learn more about the situation.

How many players have you known, when hired by X to do Y, bother researching around town who X is, and what Y is, and why is it important? Most will go to where they were told Y is and start poking around. To me, that begs for an ambush.

"Hey, my brother has lost a valuable necklace over on Fetch Street. I'll pay you 20 gold to go there and find it."

"Ok."

Not, who are you - and why don't you get it yourself? What is Fetch Street like? Why do you expect to to be there if it's so valuable? Meanwhile, other party members ask others around, who is this guy? Does he have a brother? What's his brother like?

I realize it's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my drift.

I don't think the two adventures are indicative of typical use of intrigue. They are just two adventures involving an ambush.

YMMV

 

[fanboy2000]

Intrigue dosen't equal ambush

While I don't share your players dislike of ambushes (and I think there reasons for disliking them are a bit weak), I agree that the Forgoten Forge does rely heavly on them. Though, adventures should realize that it is to be expected.

The Queen with the Burning Eyes is more a traditional dungeon crawl, and I think that's why its a bit short on the intrigue. I don't like that adventure as much as I like Shadows of the Last War, a genuine sequal to the Forgoten Forge. I just got Shadows today (I'm sure today's the release date, so you wouldn't have seen it earlier) and I loved it. Fewer ambushes, and a backstory that is important enough to research. Characters who roleplay will love the adventure. Yes, there is a lot of combat, but there are also chances for the DM to have fun roleplaying the diffrent characters too. My sugestion? Run the Forgoten Forge, then run Shadows of the last War. If your players are annoyed by ambushes, then I'd re-do one or two of them so they aren't ambushes.

 

[Menchi]

I agree that the sample adventure provided in Eberron lacked any true element of intrigue. But at the same time, a true game with intrigue woudl require several games of play that slowly reveal the planning and plotting that is happening in the background.

Writing or running a game built on intrigue requires skill and effort. It needs to work similar to a good horror - giving enough information to allow players to possibly figure it out themselves, but not enough to hand everything on a platter.

Eberron's base setting does help in that there are already a number of clever relationships already in action - and a smart GM knows how to retro-fit any plot twists.

Most of the games I run tend to be built around intrigue and politics - that's probably why Eberron appeals to me so much. I'm willing to wait for the Shadows of The Last War scenario book - I'm hoping that it will have a lot more for me to work with there. As it is, I'm going to be creating my own factions who'll be replacing some of the NPCs in the sample adventure so that I can work in some real intrigue.

But that's still about a month away - expect to see an actual play thread sometime in the future.

Conan

 

[Anduril]

My players, please don't read this!

I'm planning to have my group be part of the Brelish Secret Service, so I may actually assign them the job of investigating this sinister noble. He has some status and powerful friends, so the crown must have clear and convincing evidence before it acts. That way, I hope the intrigue aspect will be the PCs trying to get the goods on the villain before the inevitible betrayal and ambush.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I wanted to revive this thread, because I think it captures what I see as several critical flaws in the Dungeon mag. #113 adventure "Queen with the Burning Eyes." Some of these have been touched on before, so forgive me for repeating. Major spoilers here, so I'll use the appropriate tags.

Spoiler

1. The PCs get ambushed by thugs "whenever and wherever [they] rest for the first time" (p. 29, "The First Night"). So much for whatever actions the PCs may have taken to avoid just such an eventuality. I also note that this is also an EL 4 encounter, which is quite nasty for presumed 1st-level PCs. The thugs are supposed to attack for nonlethal damage, but as the DMG points out, there is nothing that players hate more than their PCs being taken captive; many players would rather have their PCs die!

2. Travack, the Emerald Claw agent who attempts to buy the amulet from the PCs, seems to have been written by two different people. On the one hand, "he has no interest in fighting the PCs .... If they refuse his offer outright, he backs off gracefully ...." (p. 29, just before his stat block) On the other hand, "If the PCs refuse to give him the amulet, he grows obviously angry and storms off." (second paragraph of Development) There's a big difference between backing off gracefully and storming off, and it will lead to a substantially different tone for the campaign if one is chosen over the other.

3. At the Khyber Shrine (p. 27), where the PCs are held captive, they are given no opportunity to free themselves -- Escape Artist DC 30 for the manacles is pretty much impossible for low-level PCs (Take 20 + 5 ranks + 3 Dex = 28), and break DC 26 is also out of reach (unless these are special low-level PCs with Str 22). Instead, they are freed by an anonymous young aristocrat. One word: lame. If Ebberon is all about heroic action, this is not the way to go about it.

Furthermore, once the PCs are free, they face an EL 5+ fight. Depending upon how badly beaten up the PCs were from the previous day, this could be a major and probably lethal situation. Also, are we to assume that the PCs' gear is just conveniently lying around? That's also lame.

4. The Final Challenge (p. 31). So many problems. First of all, it's a freakin' EL 7 encounter. For PCs who "should reach 3rd level" by the end of the adventure -- I'm assuming that means after this encounter, not before it. Second of all, exactly how does Travack "take a hostage before the PCs emerge from the ruins or immediately upon their arrival"? (p. 32) Is this a Grapple check? What if he fails? Furthermore, when he holds a dagger to the hostage's throat, what happens if the hostage tries to break free? Or if the other PCs attack instead of listening to Demise's demands?

Finally, there is no provision made for the PCs chasing down Demise and Travack. Most PCs I know would ignore the human warriors and undeads in favor of the named NPCs. So, unless physically restrained, the PCs will try to chase down these key NPCs. And if they succeed...?

Frankly, I'm shocked that James Wyatt, a designer whose work I greatly respect, is responsible for this mess of an adventure.

 

[kilamanjaro]

I'd like to point out that #2 makes sense to me. If the PC don't have the amulet and refuse to get it he backs off gracefully. If they have the amulet but refuse to give it to him he storms off.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I'd like to point out that #2 makes sense to me. If the PC don't have the amulet and refuse to get it he backs off gracefully. If they have the amulet but refuse to give it to him he storms off.

Ahh. I missed that, so I'll retract some of the bad things I said about Travack.

How about some comments from DMs who have run this adventure -- what did your players think of the issues identified in this thread?