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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7557260" data-attributes="member: 16814">If the players want to find sect members to advance their agenda in game, but the GM has failed to provide a lead to the point that they're going to the Teahouse in hopes of finding them, how is this not like asking the GM if they can do their thing?There's a point that certain play principles exist that reduce the &quot;mother may I&quot; effect in, for lack of a better term, &quot;traditional&quot; games just like principled play is used to avoid degenerate &quot;story now&quot; play , but your examples are driving straight into showing how trad play is very much the players hoping the GM allows what they want.&nbsp; I think you might want to be try to not give examples of play that showcase the behavior that's at the root of others' characterizations. On the other side, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] really dislikes GM plotted games and so tends to characterize them negatively (or gleefully use provided terms that do so). That many players actually enjoy a well-crafted GM plot is beside the point.&nbsp; In fact, this preference for using degenerate play examples and negative connotations is my largest issue with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] (I'm sure he cares) as I think he has interesting things to say. Both sides here could afford to be more charitable.&nbsp; Especially sonce if you trot out an example of degenerate story now play, you'll immediately (and correctly) be rebuffed with how principled play avoids this.&nbsp; Sadly, in &quot;trad&quot; games, the general principles floated are often degenerate themselves, so there's less of a coherent defense and it's easier to characterize play with thise degenerate examples.&nbsp; Heck, some of the defenders can be counted on to do it themselves.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7557260, member: 16814"] If the players want to find sect members to advance their agenda in game, but the GM has failed to provide a lead to the point that they're going to the Teahouse in hopes of finding them, how is this not like asking the GM if they can do their thing? There's a point that certain play principles exist that reduce the "mother may I" effect in, for lack of a better term, "traditional" games just like principled play is used to avoid degenerate "story now" play , but your examples are driving straight into showing how trad play is very much the players hoping the GM allows what they want. I think you might want to be try to not give examples of play that showcase the behavior that's at the root of others' characterizations. On the other side, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] really dislikes GM plotted games and so tends to characterize them negatively (or gleefully use provided terms that do so). That many players actually enjoy a well-crafted GM plot is beside the point. In fact, this preference for using degenerate play examples and negative connotations is my largest issue with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] (I'm sure he cares) as I think he has interesting things to say. Both sides here could afford to be more charitable. Especially sonce if you trot out an example of degenerate story now play, you'll immediately (and correctly) be rebuffed with how principled play avoids this. Sadly, in "trad" games, the general principles floated are often degenerate themselves, so there's less of a coherent defense and it's easier to characterize play with thise degenerate examples. Heck, some of the defenders can be counted on to do it themselves. [/QUOTE]

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