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*TTRPGs General
Introducing Complications Without Forcing Players to Play the "Mother May I?" Game
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<blockquote data-quote="Alexander Kalinowski" data-source="post: 7560259" data-attributes="member: 6931283"><p>If the players do, the session grinds to a screeching halt and cannot continue as normal. If one player does, he is being brought to heel or removed from the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly, no doubt. But removing the GM has greater ramifications that removing a player out of a, say, standard 4-man party. So it's completely not equivalent.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It follows that rules-as-written are meaningless unless backed up by the sufficient will to stick to them. Which was my whole point to begin with. I am invalidating your "The rulebook does not say the GM has the authority to ignore the rules". Or to be precise: I am invalidating it to exactly the same degree that the players are willing to enforce that the GM plays by the rules-as-written. And that goes btw regardless of the game having a Rule 0 in its rulebook or not. Players might be able to force the GM to stick exactly to RAW, ignoring any license a Rule 0 in the rulebook might have given him otherwise.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, this is dragging on too long. I maintain: the standard model is that players declare intent and GM's determine the outcome of that.</p><p>If you disagree, that's fine; I can live with that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If in a casual game an opponent touches a piece, it raises the question of if you're going to enforce that he has to move it or not. If you had agreed that the rule is in effect, he accidentally touches a piece, you insist he moves it but he refuses to - what are you going to do? Swallow it and move on or threaten to quit?</p><p>Anyway, I think this analogy is a dead end, let's not pursue it any further.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think I am the only one in thinking that there is such a notion:</p><p>"Rule Zero, also known as GM fiat, is the <strong>common RPG rule</strong> that the GM has the ultimate say in all rules matters and can thus introduce new rules or exceptions to rules, or abolish old ones at their leisure. [...] It should be noted that while Rule Zero has decades of tradition behind it, it is <strong>not universally</strong> accepted."</p><p><a href="https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/102507/what-is-rule-zero" target="_blank">https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/102507/what-is-rule-zero</a></p><p></p><p>Emphasis mine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How is the OP relevant if we're not discussing the topic of the thread but are being side-tracked by a quite different question: do players declare actions or intent? (Or differently phrased: if a player declares that his PC is going to do X - is the PC <em>definitely</em> going to do X or does the GM have the power to rule that specific, unusual circumstances prevent the character from even trying?) The post I replied to in the above specifically referenced AD&D, you responded to my reply by quoting from the PHB and DMG. So I feel very safe in claiming that the immediate context of my remarks was not Dungeon World.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't. But I do get to determine unilaterally if this conversation is a waste of my time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alexander Kalinowski, post: 7560259, member: 6931283"] If the players do, the session grinds to a screeching halt and cannot continue as normal. If one player does, he is being brought to heel or removed from the game. Exactly, no doubt. But removing the GM has greater ramifications that removing a player out of a, say, standard 4-man party. So it's completely not equivalent. It follows that rules-as-written are meaningless unless backed up by the sufficient will to stick to them. Which was my whole point to begin with. I am invalidating your "The rulebook does not say the GM has the authority to ignore the rules". Or to be precise: I am invalidating it to exactly the same degree that the players are willing to enforce that the GM plays by the rules-as-written. And that goes btw regardless of the game having a Rule 0 in its rulebook or not. Players might be able to force the GM to stick exactly to RAW, ignoring any license a Rule 0 in the rulebook might have given him otherwise. Anyway, this is dragging on too long. I maintain: the standard model is that players declare intent and GM's determine the outcome of that. If you disagree, that's fine; I can live with that. If in a casual game an opponent touches a piece, it raises the question of if you're going to enforce that he has to move it or not. If you had agreed that the rule is in effect, he accidentally touches a piece, you insist he moves it but he refuses to - what are you going to do? Swallow it and move on or threaten to quit? Anyway, I think this analogy is a dead end, let's not pursue it any further. I don't think I am the only one in thinking that there is such a notion: "Rule Zero, also known as GM fiat, is the [B]common RPG rule[/B] that the GM has the ultimate say in all rules matters and can thus introduce new rules or exceptions to rules, or abolish old ones at their leisure. [...] It should be noted that while Rule Zero has decades of tradition behind it, it is [B]not universally[/B] accepted." [URL]https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/102507/what-is-rule-zero[/URL] Emphasis mine. How is the OP relevant if we're not discussing the topic of the thread but are being side-tracked by a quite different question: do players declare actions or intent? (Or differently phrased: if a player declares that his PC is going to do X - is the PC [I]definitely[/I] going to do X or does the GM have the power to rule that specific, unusual circumstances prevent the character from even trying?) The post I replied to in the above specifically referenced AD&D, you responded to my reply by quoting from the PHB and DMG. So I feel very safe in claiming that the immediate context of my remarks was not Dungeon World. I don't. But I do get to determine unilaterally if this conversation is a waste of my time. [/QUOTE]
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