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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5088590" data-attributes="member: 71571">You could use a Listen check to determine approximate distance and direction of a creature.  That's good enough with enough of a check to determine distance.And I don't recall 'Fly' being an automatically silent form of transportation, but that's personal preference really.  The description doesn't mention silence in any form. He's not so easy to detect.  He has total concealment, which means any time he spends any move action he can go Hidden.  This costs him nothing to do, and is only broken if he attacks, or is not silent, or an attempt is made for him and another creature to occupy the same space.  These are all trivial things to do.  That's why characters in leather or cloth get no penalty to their stealth checks that, as noted above, they get to make as part of their move action automatically when invisible.And if he's trying not to give away his position, chances are he is being quiet.  And if he is, he makes his stealth check.Either he's making his stealth check, or he is not.  And if he's making stealth checks, he's trying not to be noticed.  And if he is not, then he is NOT trying not to be noticed.   There's no middle ground here.The capacity to become hidden -anywhere- at -anytime- provided you meat the requirements.  Meaning not needed terrain.  That's -huge-.  And it's not difficult to be undetected.  It's just not perfect.  The wizard who is using invisibility regularly would probably have Stealth Training.  He's clearly wanting to be undetected, so he'd take training in the skill that bolsters his non-detection.  He could even fluff it as magics that pad his footsteps, etc.I find accepting the fact that invisibility means 'You are unseen' to be completely acceptable.  I've always found the reliance of invisibility to mean 'undetectable' to be a complete crock, so the new rules actually make -more- sense to me.  Invisibility is -still- damn powerful, it's just not 'autowin' and requires a little bit more effort on the part of the player.  Or rather, SOME effort.Fair enough.But regardless, one thing to consider.You have the exact same chance to make your stealth check if you are invisibile as you'd get if you were completely hidden behind a brick wall.In both cases, you cannot be seen.Think about that.</blockquote>

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