Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 1304803" data-attributes="member: 2020">Is Peace Possible? (Second IR Thread)my profile | register | search | faq | forum home &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; » Hello, Edena_of_Neith [ log out ] &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; EN World Messageboards&nbsp;&nbsp; » General RPG Forums&nbsp;&nbsp; » General RPG Discussion&nbsp;&nbsp; » (IR) Is peace possible? &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Author &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Topic: (IR) Is peace possible? &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edena_of_Neith &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 1235 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 06:59 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the IR thread, they are failing.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Failing in their efforts to create a lasting peace.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Not for lack of trying; they are trying quite hard, yet somehow peace is eluding them.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It would seem to me that, in Dungeons and Dragons, there is a built in system where peace is not&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; possible, where genocide is the only answer.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In Tolkien, this was the case, concerning the elves and the orcs.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Neither side could ever even conceive of peace, much less implement it.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In Shannara, the enemies - the Warlock Lord, the Demons, the Mord Wraiths, the Shadowen, are -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; again - beings that cannot be negotiated with.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And just exactly how does one negotiate peace with a red dragon?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Or with an aboleth?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Or an illithid?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Some people speak of the killing of helpless defenders (such as women and children) as being evil,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; yet the rules - the sytem - seems to enforce the expediency of genocide as necessary, and the evil&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is in not committing genocide (for example, allowing orc children to live.)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It is not like Star Wars.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In Star Wars, you have a massive case of the Men-in-Funny-Suits syndrome.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; All the non-human races there adhere generally to a single economy and political system, and they&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; generally behave humanish enough to get along.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; From toydarian to wookie, they are akin to humanity in their thinking and deeds.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; But that is not true of elves, orcs, aboleth, dragons, and faerie.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; These creatures do not think or behave like humans, and they cannot be forced to think or behave&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; like humans.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thus, D&amp;D can never be like Star Wars, and the Star Wars roleplaying game is a fundamentally&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; different setting from D&amp;D.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of course, in Star Wars these beings have weapons of high science and great magic, but because&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; they behave like humans, they haven't destroyed the universe yet (they did destroy Alderon ...)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The beings in the D&amp;D universe are under no such restrictions.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I am on the verge of concluding that all D&amp;D worlds must remain medieval - they CANNOT advance&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; into the renaissance, enlightenment, industrial revolution, and so on.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Any D&amp;D world that does so, will destroy itself.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That self-destruction is built into the system, into the very game rules. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Gadodel &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 8632 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 07:13 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yes, you are correct; the game is inherently about bloodshed, hatred and war. The challenge of it is&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to role play through it or roll play over it. Actually, the game is a good teacher!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It makes us think of the means to achieve goals, perhaps even peace.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Human Nature is aggressive and often in survival mode, a game designed by a human can not&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; escape this truth.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; No, do not be cynical or pessimistic. Keep working on making the story about the quest for peace&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and hope that the players have fun on that journey.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; During the transition from 2E to 3E, all of my characters met their makers. I wanted to start from a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; clean slate. Perhaps, peace should not be your only concern. Perhaps, some kind of progress should&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; take precedence.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Possible storyline hooks to help:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1. Forbidden Love. A Drow and some other...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2. Unexpected Business. Merchants make peace...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3. Mother Nature. Earthquake or some other force rocks the foundations of the campaign setting. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; or... an act so heinous, like terrorism; draws former foes into the same camp. Maybe, peace may&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; happen. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 45 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Serpenteye &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 8703 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:01 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There is peace in death. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 17 | From: Stockholm | Registered: Nov 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Serpenteye &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 8703 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:10 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Unless you're an elven Watchnorm. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 17 | From: Stockholm | Registered: Nov 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Umbran &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 4405 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:11 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; You shouldn't confuse player tendencies with what's in the game rules Edena.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Players usually go by the maxim, &quot;Cellulose heroes feel no pain&quot;. Self preservation is usually&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; undervalued as compared to ideology. Quite simply, we don't treat characters as completely real. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In the real world, we have failed to annihilate ourselves because we are willing to make&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; compromises. It is the rare person indeed who won't negotiate in earnest when death is on the line.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; There's nothing in the rules that says people (even evil ones) cannot compromise, but since there&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is no real harm threatening, we tend to forget that the fictional people may also want to avoid&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; destruction... &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 807 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: May 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Storminator &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 2220 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:12 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; D&amp;D is a game of Good and Evil. Of course there's no peace there! How can Good or Evil compromise&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; with each other without losing their identities?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; PS &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 145 | From: Tewksbury Mass | Registered: Feb 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edena_of_Neith &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 1235 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:26 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; In 1962, a bear broke through the fence of a SAC base in Minnesota.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That base did not have the proper radio contact to verify an attack was not in progress, and so they&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; assumed one was.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The bombers lumbered onto the runway, and began the takeoff acceleration, their nuclear weapons&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ready.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Only a single man, running out onto the runway, waving his arms like crazy, stopped them - said&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; man had finally gotten the word that it was a bear, and not an attack.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The world almost ended because a curious black bear decided to push through a fence.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sometimes, self-preservation fails. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Semirhage &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 8099 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:30 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Well, I've got to add some things here. I agree that bloodshed is built into the system to a degree,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; but in this case, I don't think that is what is causing the problem. In the IR thread, time was hardly&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; given to adapt, as we have had time to adapt in the modern era. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 40 years? I think that if technological change had come this quickly for us, then we would be&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; experiencing these same problems. From the medieval era to nuclear technology so quickly doesn't&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; give the races time to truly appreciate what can happen. And 40 years is also not time to truly grow&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; as a culture. Technology usually brings its own peace. Given 400 years to get a nuclear arsenal, the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Humanoids would likely have adapted their society. They would be less vicious and more docile. In&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fact, if their society had caught up to the other races on Toril, they would have been less violent. In&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; addition all of the other races would have had time to adapt and at least grow accustomed. The&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; genocide of the elves would have been impossible. As a reaction to a slower technological growth&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; rate, they'd have adapted as well in some way. Occuring so quickly, the situation was much too&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; volatile. Balance was never reached and now the delegates are expected to achieve in a matter of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; days, weeks, etc. what should have been a process of centuries. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And how should everyone really be reacting to the genocide of the elves? How would we be reacting if&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the Nazis had been successful? I'd say that out of fear, everyone would be condemning the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Humanoids. Having succeeded once, they'd likely try again. Hitler was planning on the Communists&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; being next, after all.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think peace is possible in a technological D&amp;D game. In fact, peace is likely. However the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mechanisms that propogate peace in the presence of technology require time to form. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And I also agree with Umbran's comment about 'Cellulose heroes' though I am trying to play the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Unseelie delegate in such a manner as not to put the truth to his statement.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think good and evil do compromise, because there is very often only a great grey area. Given time&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to form, the IR situation would probably have developed into a Cold War, in which no clear winner&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; could be determined until one side fell from within. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Leopold &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 8576 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:35 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; peace is a vision...war is the cold hard reality. War solves all problems, peace is for the conquered. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 173 | Registered: Nov 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Ds Da Man &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 3465 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:40 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It's a game! Kill em' all, let god sort em' out! &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --------------------&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Some may win, most will lose, but more often than not, it's up for the DM to choose.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 369 | From: IN | Registered: Mar 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Semirhage &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 8099 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:54 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Well, in this case it didn't, because the one man got through. But... have you ever read about the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; tests they subject these people to? The people who have to push the button? &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I saw a film about some of the experiments they performed and I was disgusted and disturbed to&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; find out how many people *would* push the button. If people believe that *they* are not&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; responsible for their actions, ie. some one farther up the line of command will take the blame, they&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; will do anything. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thats where the cellulose hero comes in. Players seldom have to take real blame for their actions.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; None of it is permanent. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; But the delegates in the IR thread should realize they will *be* directly responsible for the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; destruction of Toril if they continue as is. It should influence them at least. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edena_of_Neith &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 1235 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 08:57 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Well, one of them decided to start fighting.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And it was one of the chaotic good representatives.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Go figure. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Evil_OverLord &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 1610 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 09:54 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Actually it would not have mattered if the planes had left the runway. Planes are not like missiles.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Up until the planes had reached their failsafe points they could have been recalled. Thirty seconds&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; away from firing a nuclear missile is a much nearer thing because you don't want missiles to have&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; self destruct mechanisms.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --------------------&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Universal Domination, coming to your world . . . SOON.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 5 | Registered: Jan 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; William Ronald &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 542 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 10:16 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Edena,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think part of the problem in the new IR thread is that few of the participants seem willing to put&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; their hatreds aside. Also, and I am not condemning you, I think the role of the elven queen or elven&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; representative should have been played by someone else. You are doing entirely too much work.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (The reason I am not participating in your thread is that I was not on the original thread. I believe&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the original participants should solve the mess they have created.)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The most surprising thing was that Forrester was actually able to reach some form of compromise.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Unfortunately, the elven representative is unable to be flexible due to her undead status.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think Semirrhage's efforts to stop the Eladrin are proper and may work. However, I suggest&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; someone else besides an undead queen speak for the elves. As a few seem to have been&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; resurrected or found shelter with the Technomancy, a character from one of these places might be&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; an appropriate representative.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Edena, I hope I am not seeming overly harsh. I think the problem is that the technological and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; magical skills of many of the participants grew faster than their wisdom. Terror, a relative balance&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; between two antagonistic sides, and some luck helped us survive since 1945. Unfortunately, there&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; are too many cooks stirring the pot in your version of Toril. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 597 | From: Summit, IL USA | Registered: Dec 2000&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The Traveler &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 2419 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 10:51 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In Tolkien, this was the case, concerning the elves and the orcs.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Neither side could ever even conceive of peace, much less implement it.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Because the orcs were specifically created by a palpably malevolent force to mock the elves. That's&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; not the same as eradicating a naturally occurring race. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; In Shannara, the enemies - the Warlock Lord, the Demons, the Mord Wraiths, the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shadowen, are - again - beings that cannot be negotiated with.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The Gnomes managed to remain neutral, for the largest part. Storlock is an excellent example.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, again, destroying an unholy army whose entire existance pivots on the ending of yours isn't&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; genocide, it's self-preservation. You're applying human concepts to things completely outside the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mundane ecology. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And just exactly how does one negotiate peace with a red dragon?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ah, here we get into the meat and potatoes of the argument. I have easy answers for these. Let's&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; start with the dragon. One hundred head of cattle, monthly, culled from the local herds. Bring him&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that, and nobody's village gets torched. There's negotiating. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Or with an aboleth?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sacrifice dumped over the side of the ship, either money or food, as tribute. Do this, and your ship&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; won't get attacked by their giant squid as you travel. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Or an illithid?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One child per family tithed as thrall to the Mind Flayers. Grim? Dark? Surely, but on these terms, the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; common man negotiates with the Illithid for his safety. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Some people speak of the killing of helpless defenders (such as women and children)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; as being evil, yet the rules - the sytem - seems to enforce the expediency of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; genocide as necessary, and the evil is in not committing genocide (for example,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; allowing orc children to live.)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The rules mandate no such thing. The morality is as simple or complex as you, the DM, choose to&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; make it. It is by no means hard-coded into the rules.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: The Traveler ]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 919 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Nighttfall &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 4136 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 10:58 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; War, bloodshed and death. It's what keeps Belsameth, Vangal and Chardun in business! &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; --------------------&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Duly appointed Evangelist, Exorcist, and Proclaimer of the Word that is the Scarred Lands. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Darkness comes where Nightfall goes.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 2061 | Registered: Apr 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Umbran &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 4405 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 05, 2001 11:46 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; quote:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; The world almost ended because a curious black bear decided to push through a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; fence.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sometimes, self-preservation fails.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Assuming that story is true - sorry, but without attribution to a reliable source, I'm likely to call that&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; an urban legend, we like scaring ourselves - the meaning of the story is still debatable.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; You can read it that we almost died, thus showing that our self-preservation is a thin armor, or you&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; can see it otherwise....&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; One can just as eaisly say that this shows self-preservation winning. It really isn't one man running&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; out on the tarmac. It's him, and the guards who failed to shoot him, and the pilots who didn't run&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; him over, and the officers who listened...&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sounds more to me that there were a lot of people who really wanted any excuse not to launch&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; those planes. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; HOw things look ratehr depends on what color glasses you're looking through. I hardly think that a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fantasy RPG is realy that close an allegory to the real world. How RPG characters behave does not&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; accurately reflect real-world nations.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (edit: the misspelling &quot;urbal legend&quot; brought a few odd images to mind...)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Umbran ]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 807 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: May 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edena_of_Neith &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 1235 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 06, 2001 02:09 AM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I attempted to get someone to run the elven Queen, but nobody would do it.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I did my best, but I am not a master diplomat and subtlely clever like Forrester is.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Also, I felt the Queen was bound by certain dictates that limited what she could do.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Queen Amlaruil was not the inciter of the war ... that was done by saboteurs that were entirely&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; beyond her control.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Queen Amlaruil did not start the war against the Humanoids, but she was dragged in when Evereska&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; was attacked.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The destruction of Evereska and the massacre of it's entire population, and the subsequent&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; devouring of the elves by the humanoids left Amlaruil with no choice but Total War.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Of course, Total War came to Evermeet, and Amlaruil fought a desperate and long defense of her&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; homeland.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; For over a year, Evermeet held out against the worst kind of attacks, not only from humanoids and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; scro, but from legions of fiends that had allied with them and gith mercenaries from wildspace, and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a lot of other enemies.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Only the Faerie truly aided her, with token help from the dwarves and gnomes.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Queen Amlaruil is not perfect; she is mortal, and she is subject to emotions and feelings.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; When Evermeet had fallen and it's people had been massacred and eaten, Amlaruil fell into suicidal&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; disaster and insane wrath, and with her High Mages called down the Cataclysm.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; She was doomed by her actions; doomed to remain in the world as an undead.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; She still, however, had reason to hate the Humanoids and those who had not helped her, for all&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; eternity, forever, and utterly.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yet she got up from her restless sleep, and offered to stop her own kind from avenging her.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Now tell me that a lot of PC elves wouldn't have just jumped right on the vengeance bandwagon at&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that point, good alignment or not, and rode the tide of revenge to it's fulfillment?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Instead, Amlaruil went and apologized - APOLOGIZED - to the humanoid leader who exterminated&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; her people.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And then she agreed to threaten and even KILL her own race, to protect the humanoids.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; All she asked in return was that forgiveness be extended to her people, and that they be allowed to&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; reintegrate into society.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; When refused, she did not leave, but instead went and threatened and browbeat her people right&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; then, and offered physical proof to the humanoid leader of her good faith.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; When the humanoid leader still would not agree to her terms, she gave up.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And they say she's being unreasonable ... perhaps she is, but unreasonable depends a lot on each&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; person's point of view, doesn't it?&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - - -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; For what it's worth ... if you look at the IR thread from the very beginning (in the Archive) through&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; now (on the In Character board) ... that is how I used to DM the games of Dungeons and Dragons I&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ran.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; That is my style of DMing.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Edena_of_Neith ]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; William Ronald &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 542 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 06, 2001 11:29 PM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Edena, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I was not trying to sound critical. I have seen an occassional player who would apologize and try to&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; make peace. As for another comment, I am not criticizing you for doing too much on the thread. I&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; perhaps should have said that others should do more. (Which is why I did not participate, as I think&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that would be best left to the original participants.)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Forrester surprised me by compromising after a fashion. Perhaps in time all hatreds can be put&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; aside. I have hope for this in the real world and I suspect this may happen in your own version of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Toril. (By the way, I do like the DMing style.)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The undead are limited in their responses, but I thought you handled the Queen well within her&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; limitations. If I have offended you, I sincerely apologize. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 597 | From: Summit, IL USA | Registered: Dec 2000&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Edena_of_Neith &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Member # 1235 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; posted December 07, 2001 02:27 AM&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; All's well, William.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Thanks for your post.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I, too, wish there were more participants. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001&nbsp; |&nbsp; IP: Logged &nbsp; &nbsp; All times are US Central Time &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Hop To:&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Contact Us | EN World - D&amp;D/d20 News &amp; Reviews &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Powered by Infopop Corporation&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.1.0.3</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 1304803, member: 2020"] [b]Is Peace Possible? (Second IR Thread)[/b] my profile | register | search | faq | forum home » Hello, Edena_of_Neith [ log out ] EN World Messageboards » General RPG Forums » General RPG Discussion » (IR) Is peace possible? Author Topic: (IR) Is peace possible? Edena_of_Neith Member Member # 1235 posted December 05, 2001 06:59 PM In the IR thread, they are failing. Failing in their efforts to create a lasting peace. Not for lack of trying; they are trying quite hard, yet somehow peace is eluding them. It would seem to me that, in Dungeons and Dragons, there is a built in system where peace is not possible, where genocide is the only answer. In Tolkien, this was the case, concerning the elves and the orcs. Neither side could ever even conceive of peace, much less implement it. In Shannara, the enemies - the Warlock Lord, the Demons, the Mord Wraiths, the Shadowen, are - again - beings that cannot be negotiated with. And just exactly how does one negotiate peace with a red dragon? Or with an aboleth? Or an illithid? Some people speak of the killing of helpless defenders (such as women and children) as being evil, yet the rules - the sytem - seems to enforce the expediency of genocide as necessary, and the evil is in not committing genocide (for example, allowing orc children to live.) It is not like Star Wars. In Star Wars, you have a massive case of the Men-in-Funny-Suits syndrome. All the non-human races there adhere generally to a single economy and political system, and they generally behave humanish enough to get along. From toydarian to wookie, they are akin to humanity in their thinking and deeds. But that is not true of elves, orcs, aboleth, dragons, and faerie. These creatures do not think or behave like humans, and they cannot be forced to think or behave like humans. Thus, D&D can never be like Star Wars, and the Star Wars roleplaying game is a fundamentally different setting from D&D. Of course, in Star Wars these beings have weapons of high science and great magic, but because they behave like humans, they haven't destroyed the universe yet (they did destroy Alderon ...) The beings in the D&D universe are under no such restrictions. I am on the verge of concluding that all D&D worlds must remain medieval - they CANNOT advance into the renaissance, enlightenment, industrial revolution, and so on. Any D&D world that does so, will destroy itself. That self-destruction is built into the system, into the very game rules. Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged Gadodel Member Member # 8632 posted December 05, 2001 07:13 PM Yes, you are correct; the game is inherently about bloodshed, hatred and war. The challenge of it is to role play through it or roll play over it. Actually, the game is a good teacher! It makes us think of the means to achieve goals, perhaps even peace. Human Nature is aggressive and often in survival mode, a game designed by a human can not escape this truth. No, do not be cynical or pessimistic. Keep working on making the story about the quest for peace and hope that the players have fun on that journey. During the transition from 2E to 3E, all of my characters met their makers. I wanted to start from a clean slate. Perhaps, peace should not be your only concern. Perhaps, some kind of progress should take precedence. Possible storyline hooks to help: 1. Forbidden Love. A Drow and some other... 2. Unexpected Business. Merchants make peace... 3. Mother Nature. Earthquake or some other force rocks the foundations of the campaign setting. or... an act so heinous, like terrorism; draws former foes into the same camp. Maybe, peace may happen. Posts: 45 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged Serpenteye Member Member # 8703 posted December 05, 2001 08:01 PM There is peace in death. Posts: 17 | From: Stockholm | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged Serpenteye Member Member # 8703 posted December 05, 2001 08:10 PM Unless you're an elven Watchnorm. Posts: 17 | From: Stockholm | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged Umbran Member Member # 4405 posted December 05, 2001 08:11 PM You shouldn't confuse player tendencies with what's in the game rules Edena. Players usually go by the maxim, "Cellulose heroes feel no pain". Self preservation is usually undervalued as compared to ideology. Quite simply, we don't treat characters as completely real. In the real world, we have failed to annihilate ourselves because we are willing to make compromises. It is the rare person indeed who won't negotiate in earnest when death is on the line. There's nothing in the rules that says people (even evil ones) cannot compromise, but since there is no real harm threatening, we tend to forget that the fictional people may also want to avoid destruction... Posts: 807 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged Storminator Member Member # 2220 posted December 05, 2001 08:12 PM D&D is a game of Good and Evil. Of course there's no peace there! How can Good or Evil compromise with each other without losing their identities? PS Posts: 145 | From: Tewksbury Mass | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged Edena_of_Neith Member Member # 1235 posted December 05, 2001 08:26 PM In 1962, a bear broke through the fence of a SAC base in Minnesota. That base did not have the proper radio contact to verify an attack was not in progress, and so they assumed one was. The bombers lumbered onto the runway, and began the takeoff acceleration, their nuclear weapons ready. Only a single man, running out onto the runway, waving his arms like crazy, stopped them - said man had finally gotten the word that it was a bear, and not an attack. The world almost ended because a curious black bear decided to push through a fence. Sometimes, self-preservation fails. Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged Semirhage Member Member # 8099 posted December 05, 2001 08:30 PM Well, I've got to add some things here. I agree that bloodshed is built into the system to a degree, but in this case, I don't think that is what is causing the problem. In the IR thread, time was hardly given to adapt, as we have had time to adapt in the modern era. 40 years? I think that if technological change had come this quickly for us, then we would be experiencing these same problems. From the medieval era to nuclear technology so quickly doesn't give the races time to truly appreciate what can happen. And 40 years is also not time to truly grow as a culture. Technology usually brings its own peace. Given 400 years to get a nuclear arsenal, the Humanoids would likely have adapted their society. They would be less vicious and more docile. In fact, if their society had caught up to the other races on Toril, they would have been less violent. In addition all of the other races would have had time to adapt and at least grow accustomed. The genocide of the elves would have been impossible. As a reaction to a slower technological growth rate, they'd have adapted as well in some way. Occuring so quickly, the situation was much too volatile. Balance was never reached and now the delegates are expected to achieve in a matter of days, weeks, etc. what should have been a process of centuries. And how should everyone really be reacting to the genocide of the elves? How would we be reacting if the Nazis had been successful? I'd say that out of fear, everyone would be condemning the Humanoids. Having succeeded once, they'd likely try again. Hitler was planning on the Communists being next, after all. I think peace is possible in a technological D&D game. In fact, peace is likely. However the mechanisms that propogate peace in the presence of technology require time to form. And I also agree with Umbran's comment about 'Cellulose heroes' though I am trying to play the Unseelie delegate in such a manner as not to put the truth to his statement. I think good and evil do compromise, because there is very often only a great grey area. Given time to form, the IR situation would probably have developed into a Cold War, in which no clear winner could be determined until one side fell from within. Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Leopold Member Member # 8576 posted December 05, 2001 08:35 PM peace is a vision...war is the cold hard reality. War solves all problems, peace is for the conquered. Posts: 173 | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged Ds Da Man Member Member # 3465 posted December 05, 2001 08:40 PM It's a game! Kill em' all, let god sort em' out! -------------------- Some may win, most will lose, but more often than not, it's up for the DM to choose. Posts: 369 | From: IN | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged Semirhage Member Member # 8099 posted December 05, 2001 08:54 PM Well, in this case it didn't, because the one man got through. But... have you ever read about the tests they subject these people to? The people who have to push the button? I saw a film about some of the experiments they performed and I was disgusted and disturbed to find out how many people *would* push the button. If people believe that *they* are not responsible for their actions, ie. some one farther up the line of command will take the blame, they will do anything. Thats where the cellulose hero comes in. Players seldom have to take real blame for their actions. None of it is permanent. But the delegates in the IR thread should realize they will *be* directly responsible for the destruction of Toril if they continue as is. It should influence them at least. Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged Edena_of_Neith Member Member # 1235 posted December 05, 2001 08:57 PM Well, one of them decided to start fighting. And it was one of the chaotic good representatives. Go figure. Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged Evil_OverLord Member Member # 1610 posted December 05, 2001 09:54 PM Actually it would not have mattered if the planes had left the runway. Planes are not like missiles. Up until the planes had reached their failsafe points they could have been recalled. Thirty seconds away from firing a nuclear missile is a much nearer thing because you don't want missiles to have self destruct mechanisms. -------------------- Universal Domination, coming to your world . . . SOON. Posts: 5 | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged William Ronald Member Member # 542 posted December 05, 2001 10:16 PM Edena, I think part of the problem in the new IR thread is that few of the participants seem willing to put their hatreds aside. Also, and I am not condemning you, I think the role of the elven queen or elven representative should have been played by someone else. You are doing entirely too much work. (The reason I am not participating in your thread is that I was not on the original thread. I believe the original participants should solve the mess they have created.) The most surprising thing was that Forrester was actually able to reach some form of compromise. Unfortunately, the elven representative is unable to be flexible due to her undead status. I think Semirrhage's efforts to stop the Eladrin are proper and may work. However, I suggest someone else besides an undead queen speak for the elves. As a few seem to have been resurrected or found shelter with the Technomancy, a character from one of these places might be an appropriate representative. Edena, I hope I am not seeming overly harsh. I think the problem is that the technological and magical skills of many of the participants grew faster than their wisdom. Terror, a relative balance between two antagonistic sides, and some luck helped us survive since 1945. Unfortunately, there are too many cooks stirring the pot in your version of Toril. Posts: 597 | From: Summit, IL USA | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged The Traveler Member Member # 2419 posted December 05, 2001 10:51 PM quote: Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith: In Tolkien, this was the case, concerning the elves and the orcs. Neither side could ever even conceive of peace, much less implement it. Because the orcs were specifically created by a palpably malevolent force to mock the elves. That's not the same as eradicating a naturally occurring race. quote: In Shannara, the enemies - the Warlock Lord, the Demons, the Mord Wraiths, the Shadowen, are - again - beings that cannot be negotiated with. The Gnomes managed to remain neutral, for the largest part. Storlock is an excellent example. Also, again, destroying an unholy army whose entire existance pivots on the ending of yours isn't genocide, it's self-preservation. You're applying human concepts to things completely outside the mundane ecology. quote: And just exactly how does one negotiate peace with a red dragon? Ah, here we get into the meat and potatoes of the argument. I have easy answers for these. Let's start with the dragon. One hundred head of cattle, monthly, culled from the local herds. Bring him that, and nobody's village gets torched. There's negotiating. quote: Or with an aboleth? Sacrifice dumped over the side of the ship, either money or food, as tribute. Do this, and your ship won't get attacked by their giant squid as you travel. quote: Or an illithid? One child per family tithed as thrall to the Mind Flayers. Grim? Dark? Surely, but on these terms, the common man negotiates with the Illithid for his safety. quote: Some people speak of the killing of helpless defenders (such as women and children) as being evil, yet the rules - the sytem - seems to enforce the expediency of genocide as necessary, and the evil is in not committing genocide (for example, allowing orc children to live.) The rules mandate no such thing. The morality is as simple or complex as you, the DM, choose to make it. It is by no means hard-coded into the rules. [ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: The Traveler ] Posts: 919 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged Nighttfall Member Member # 4136 posted December 05, 2001 10:58 PM War, bloodshed and death. It's what keeps Belsameth, Vangal and Chardun in business! -------------------- Duly appointed Evangelist, Exorcist, and Proclaimer of the Word that is the Scarred Lands. Darkness comes where Nightfall goes. Let the Lord of Chaos rule. Posts: 2061 | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged Umbran Member Member # 4405 posted December 05, 2001 11:46 PM quote: Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith: The world almost ended because a curious black bear decided to push through a fence. Sometimes, self-preservation fails. Assuming that story is true - sorry, but without attribution to a reliable source, I'm likely to call that an urban legend, we like scaring ourselves - the meaning of the story is still debatable. You can read it that we almost died, thus showing that our self-preservation is a thin armor, or you can see it otherwise.... One can just as eaisly say that this shows self-preservation winning. It really isn't one man running out on the tarmac. It's him, and the guards who failed to shoot him, and the pilots who didn't run him over, and the officers who listened... Sounds more to me that there were a lot of people who really wanted any excuse not to launch those planes. HOw things look ratehr depends on what color glasses you're looking through. I hardly think that a fantasy RPG is realy that close an allegory to the real world. How RPG characters behave does not accurately reflect real-world nations. (edit: the misspelling "urbal legend" brought a few odd images to mind...) [ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Umbran ] Posts: 807 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: May 2001 | IP: Logged Edena_of_Neith Member Member # 1235 posted December 06, 2001 02:09 AM I attempted to get someone to run the elven Queen, but nobody would do it. I did my best, but I am not a master diplomat and subtlely clever like Forrester is. Also, I felt the Queen was bound by certain dictates that limited what she could do. Queen Amlaruil was not the inciter of the war ... that was done by saboteurs that were entirely beyond her control. Queen Amlaruil did not start the war against the Humanoids, but she was dragged in when Evereska was attacked. The destruction of Evereska and the massacre of it's entire population, and the subsequent devouring of the elves by the humanoids left Amlaruil with no choice but Total War. Of course, Total War came to Evermeet, and Amlaruil fought a desperate and long defense of her homeland. For over a year, Evermeet held out against the worst kind of attacks, not only from humanoids and scro, but from legions of fiends that had allied with them and gith mercenaries from wildspace, and a lot of other enemies. Only the Faerie truly aided her, with token help from the dwarves and gnomes. Queen Amlaruil is not perfect; she is mortal, and she is subject to emotions and feelings. When Evermeet had fallen and it's people had been massacred and eaten, Amlaruil fell into suicidal disaster and insane wrath, and with her High Mages called down the Cataclysm. She was doomed by her actions; doomed to remain in the world as an undead. She still, however, had reason to hate the Humanoids and those who had not helped her, for all eternity, forever, and utterly. Yet she got up from her restless sleep, and offered to stop her own kind from avenging her. Now tell me that a lot of PC elves wouldn't have just jumped right on the vengeance bandwagon at that point, good alignment or not, and rode the tide of revenge to it's fulfillment? Instead, Amlaruil went and apologized - APOLOGIZED - to the humanoid leader who exterminated her people. And then she agreed to threaten and even KILL her own race, to protect the humanoids. All she asked in return was that forgiveness be extended to her people, and that they be allowed to reintegrate into society. When refused, she did not leave, but instead went and threatened and browbeat her people right then, and offered physical proof to the humanoid leader of her good faith. When the humanoid leader still would not agree to her terms, she gave up. And they say she's being unreasonable ... perhaps she is, but unreasonable depends a lot on each person's point of view, doesn't it? - - - For what it's worth ... if you look at the IR thread from the very beginning (in the Archive) through now (on the In Character board) ... that is how I used to DM the games of Dungeons and Dragons I ran. That is my style of DMing. [ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Edena_of_Neith ] Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged William Ronald Member Member # 542 posted December 06, 2001 11:29 PM Edena, I was not trying to sound critical. I have seen an occassional player who would apologize and try to make peace. As for another comment, I am not criticizing you for doing too much on the thread. I perhaps should have said that others should do more. (Which is why I did not participate, as I think that would be best left to the original participants.) Forrester surprised me by compromising after a fashion. Perhaps in time all hatreds can be put aside. I have hope for this in the real world and I suspect this may happen in your own version of Toril. (By the way, I do like the DMing style.) The undead are limited in their responses, but I thought you handled the Queen well within her limitations. If I have offended you, I sincerely apologize. Posts: 597 | From: Summit, IL USA | Registered: Dec 2000 | IP: Logged Edena_of_Neith Member Member # 1235 posted December 07, 2001 02:27 AM All's well, William. Thanks for your post. I, too, wish there were more participants. Posts: 1620 | From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged All times are US Central Time Hop To: Contact Us | EN World - D&D/d20 News & Reviews Powered by Infopop Corporation Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.1.0.3 [/QUOTE]

Verification