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Iron DM 2009 - all matches
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<blockquote data-quote="Radiating Gnome" data-source="post: 4998108" data-attributes="member: 150"><p>Okay, well, this is it. </p><p></p><p>[sblock]</p><p>I think everyone can see that these are both very creative, cool scenarios -- and both are very different approaches to the ingredients -- but, lets get down to brass tacks. We're comparing The Far City (FC) by Iron Sky to Hell's Close (HC) by InVinoVeritas. </p><p></p><p><strong>Ingredients. </strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Damned Alley</strong> Okay . . . in FC, we have an alley or street in which Velos the immortal has been trapped by the wyrd dragon, divested of his rod, and left to be gnawed to the bone each day all-prometheus-like by flying piranhas. It's a powerful visual, it's very, very cool, but it's a bit off -- I mean, clearly it's Velos who is damned, not the alley. It's not as strong as it could be. </p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, in HC, the damned alley is an important part of the setting -- it's where the adventure starts and ends . . but I'm missing exactly in what way it's been damned by the giants. It has been targeted by them, because that's where the entrance is to the faerie dragon's lair is . . . but that's hardly damned. So, a weak point for FC.</p><p></p><p><strong>Non-Reflective Mirror</strong> - Both entries use this ingredient very well, by and large. And, interestingly enough, both have mirrors that transition and either become reflective or unreflective. In FC, the players can only see the wyrd dragon through mirrors during the shift, so they have to be non-reflective mirrors before the shift . . . and that's pretty cool. In HC, the mirrors are normal mirrors that become non-reflective, either through their own magic or something else -- and that allows the giants to pass through into the world. </p><p></p><p>In the end, I think they're both pretty good, although the mirrors in HC are used more importantly, so for this ingredient that gives HC a slight edge. </p><p></p><p><strong>Sleeping Watcher</strong> - I love the image of the dragon sleeping in the center of town, dream-watching everything that goes on. FC has a good use here. HC's dream watcher, on the other hand, is a exposition device more than anything else. And, while the dreams are used well to foreshadow and provide information to the PCs -- and it's a very cool use of the sleeping watcher ingredient -- it's not quite as strong as the dragon. Edge to FC.</p><p></p><p><strong>Giant Mafia </strong>- Both entries kinda drop the ball on this one. Both include powerful organizations of bad guys that are plotting . . . but in both cases I don't see how the organizations are necessarily mafias. In FC, the "mafia" is the plane-spanning aberration group . . . but the city is also described as having no real law or controlling social structure -- and if that's the case, how is this group of aberrations criminal? If there are no laws to break, how can they conspire to break laws? </p><p></p><p>In HC, there is a hint of criminal organization in the network being used to distribute the mirrors around the city. And it's obviously being directed by giants. But, gags like "anyone who breaks a mirror will be fed to the fish" don't quite make it a mafia operation . . . and the traditional line is to say someone "sleeps with the fishes" anyway . . . </p><p></p><p>Still, since the giants were working against the established order in the city, they can be construed as criminal . . .call it a weak edge for HC.</p><p></p><p><strong>Flying Piranhas</strong> - Both entries had them. They were actually used in pretty much the same way. It's a wash. </p><p></p><p><strong>Rod of Fumbling </strong>- Both entries used the rod prominently. I think the Rod in HC leads to a weakness with the entry I'll talk about later, but in as much as it's a part of the adventure, I think that the use of the rod in HC is actually more prominent than the one in FC, where the Rod is the object of their quest -- and despite the detailed backstory could be almost anything. Edge to HC. </p><p></p><p><strong>Bonus Ingredient:</strong></p><p><strong>Flaming Dragon.</strong> Both had dragons. In HC, the faerie dragon becomes flaming when it gets pelted with alchemist's fire . . . which kills it, of course. And in FC, the big bad at the end is the flaming wyrd dragon. In both cases, the flaming isn't important or even used much in the story, so I'm not giving anyone bonus points for this one. </p><p></p><p><strong>Creativity/Evocative Writing/Etc. </strong></p><p>These entries, once you step back from the specific ingredients, are some of the best, most creative, interesting scenarios we could hope for in this sort of forum. If I were going to give an edge to either entry, it would be to HC for not relying heavily on backstory that ends up being for the GM's eyes only, but that's a small thing. </p><p></p><p><strong>Usability</strong></p><p>I like both of these adventures, at heard -- and there's a ton of great, creative energy going on here, the sort of stuff that is exactly what Iron DM is all about. Any entry is going to have flaws and problems, of course, since it amounts to a sketch and draft, so it's not surprising that, when you really dig into these the flaws start to appear. </p><p></p><p>FC is a cool adventure, but a huge portion of the entry is backstory that may or may not be communicated to the PCs. One of the strengths that I see in HC is that the exposition, delivered mostly through dreams, gives the PCs the bits they need to know in a more evocative way -- and we don't need a huge backstory to explain the plot going on behind the scenes for the DM -- it's all laid bare. </p><p></p><p>However, HC has a tragic flaw. The adventure is designed with one specific path, one solution in mind. It reads to me like a plan for a computer game rather than an RPG -- something where the PC can go back to a save point and try something again and again until he figures out the trick to beat the encounter. The entire scenario leads to a point where the PCs need to trick the giants into breaking the "mirror" surface of the slick stone during the final battle -- and the way to do that is to have the rod of fumbling, recovered from the piranahs after the fool's death. </p><p></p><p>FC's final battle is also gimmicky. The PCs need to get the dragon to breath on his own pedestal. But the adventure does not have a prescribed solution for that stunt. But there isn't a single right way to handle that problem -- the PCs will have many powers and tricks up their sleeves, and the adventure only sets the goal for them leaving it up to their own creativity to find the solution. And, given a diversity of parties, there should be a diversity of solutions. </p><p></p><p><strong>Final</strong></p><p>In the end HC has a slight edge in ingredients thanks to the more integral use of the Rod of Fumbling . . . but, at the same time, that integral use is the biggest problem I see in either entry -- and the lynch pin of the playability problem that I see in HC. HC reads like a cool story, not so much a cool adventure. In a story, we don't worry that there should be multiple solutions to a problem, because the author will pick the one he wants. But in a rpg, if there's only one path to success the players don't get to make real choices and solve real problems, the game becomes an exercise in going through the motions. </p><p></p><p>FC has it's own problems, but because it seems more playable. My vote goes to FC, and it's author Iron Sky. </p><p>[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Radiating Gnome, post: 4998108, member: 150"] Okay, well, this is it. [sblock] I think everyone can see that these are both very creative, cool scenarios -- and both are very different approaches to the ingredients -- but, lets get down to brass tacks. We're comparing The Far City (FC) by Iron Sky to Hell's Close (HC) by InVinoVeritas. [B]Ingredients. [/B] [B]Damned Alley[/B] Okay . . . in FC, we have an alley or street in which Velos the immortal has been trapped by the wyrd dragon, divested of his rod, and left to be gnawed to the bone each day all-prometheus-like by flying piranhas. It's a powerful visual, it's very, very cool, but it's a bit off -- I mean, clearly it's Velos who is damned, not the alley. It's not as strong as it could be. Meanwhile, in HC, the damned alley is an important part of the setting -- it's where the adventure starts and ends . . but I'm missing exactly in what way it's been damned by the giants. It has been targeted by them, because that's where the entrance is to the faerie dragon's lair is . . . but that's hardly damned. So, a weak point for FC. [B]Non-Reflective Mirror[/B] - Both entries use this ingredient very well, by and large. And, interestingly enough, both have mirrors that transition and either become reflective or unreflective. In FC, the players can only see the wyrd dragon through mirrors during the shift, so they have to be non-reflective mirrors before the shift . . . and that's pretty cool. In HC, the mirrors are normal mirrors that become non-reflective, either through their own magic or something else -- and that allows the giants to pass through into the world. In the end, I think they're both pretty good, although the mirrors in HC are used more importantly, so for this ingredient that gives HC a slight edge. [B]Sleeping Watcher[/B] - I love the image of the dragon sleeping in the center of town, dream-watching everything that goes on. FC has a good use here. HC's dream watcher, on the other hand, is a exposition device more than anything else. And, while the dreams are used well to foreshadow and provide information to the PCs -- and it's a very cool use of the sleeping watcher ingredient -- it's not quite as strong as the dragon. Edge to FC. [B]Giant Mafia [/B]- Both entries kinda drop the ball on this one. Both include powerful organizations of bad guys that are plotting . . . but in both cases I don't see how the organizations are necessarily mafias. In FC, the "mafia" is the plane-spanning aberration group . . . but the city is also described as having no real law or controlling social structure -- and if that's the case, how is this group of aberrations criminal? If there are no laws to break, how can they conspire to break laws? In HC, there is a hint of criminal organization in the network being used to distribute the mirrors around the city. And it's obviously being directed by giants. But, gags like "anyone who breaks a mirror will be fed to the fish" don't quite make it a mafia operation . . . and the traditional line is to say someone "sleeps with the fishes" anyway . . . Still, since the giants were working against the established order in the city, they can be construed as criminal . . .call it a weak edge for HC. [B]Flying Piranhas[/B] - Both entries had them. They were actually used in pretty much the same way. It's a wash. [B]Rod of Fumbling [/B]- Both entries used the rod prominently. I think the Rod in HC leads to a weakness with the entry I'll talk about later, but in as much as it's a part of the adventure, I think that the use of the rod in HC is actually more prominent than the one in FC, where the Rod is the object of their quest -- and despite the detailed backstory could be almost anything. Edge to HC. [B]Bonus Ingredient:[/B] [B]Flaming Dragon.[/B] Both had dragons. In HC, the faerie dragon becomes flaming when it gets pelted with alchemist's fire . . . which kills it, of course. And in FC, the big bad at the end is the flaming wyrd dragon. In both cases, the flaming isn't important or even used much in the story, so I'm not giving anyone bonus points for this one. [B]Creativity/Evocative Writing/Etc. [/B] These entries, once you step back from the specific ingredients, are some of the best, most creative, interesting scenarios we could hope for in this sort of forum. If I were going to give an edge to either entry, it would be to HC for not relying heavily on backstory that ends up being for the GM's eyes only, but that's a small thing. [B]Usability[/B] I like both of these adventures, at heard -- and there's a ton of great, creative energy going on here, the sort of stuff that is exactly what Iron DM is all about. Any entry is going to have flaws and problems, of course, since it amounts to a sketch and draft, so it's not surprising that, when you really dig into these the flaws start to appear. FC is a cool adventure, but a huge portion of the entry is backstory that may or may not be communicated to the PCs. One of the strengths that I see in HC is that the exposition, delivered mostly through dreams, gives the PCs the bits they need to know in a more evocative way -- and we don't need a huge backstory to explain the plot going on behind the scenes for the DM -- it's all laid bare. However, HC has a tragic flaw. The adventure is designed with one specific path, one solution in mind. It reads to me like a plan for a computer game rather than an RPG -- something where the PC can go back to a save point and try something again and again until he figures out the trick to beat the encounter. The entire scenario leads to a point where the PCs need to trick the giants into breaking the "mirror" surface of the slick stone during the final battle -- and the way to do that is to have the rod of fumbling, recovered from the piranahs after the fool's death. FC's final battle is also gimmicky. The PCs need to get the dragon to breath on his own pedestal. But the adventure does not have a prescribed solution for that stunt. But there isn't a single right way to handle that problem -- the PCs will have many powers and tricks up their sleeves, and the adventure only sets the goal for them leaving it up to their own creativity to find the solution. And, given a diversity of parties, there should be a diversity of solutions. [B]Final[/B] In the end HC has a slight edge in ingredients thanks to the more integral use of the Rod of Fumbling . . . but, at the same time, that integral use is the biggest problem I see in either entry -- and the lynch pin of the playability problem that I see in HC. HC reads like a cool story, not so much a cool adventure. In a story, we don't worry that there should be multiple solutions to a problem, because the author will pick the one he wants. But in a rpg, if there's only one path to success the players don't get to make real choices and solve real problems, the game becomes an exercise in going through the motions. FC has it's own problems, but because it seems more playable. My vote goes to FC, and it's author Iron Sky. [/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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