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IRON DM 2020 Tournament Thread
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<blockquote data-quote="Gradine" data-source="post: 8167406" data-attributes="member: 57112"><p><strong><u>Judgement for Round 2, Match 2: Iron Sky vs. FitzTheRuke</u></strong></p><p></p><p>Wow, these are two very different adventures! And both promise to great fun as well, with a desperate race providing a driving sense of urgency for the players. One of these adventures took... a few more reads to really get a handle on. The other is a fairly straightforward and typical adventure structure, though with its own unique twists. I will say that I'm struggling, at this point, to say which adventure seems to be an early favorite. So, to begin, let's break down each ingredient, and how it's utilized in [USER=60965]@Iron Sky[/USER]'s "Postmortem" and [USER=59816]@FitzTheRuke[/USER]'s "Race to the Bottom" (hereafter "Race"). I'll note that due to the close-ness of this race at this early juncture, I'll be judging these ingredients even more harshly than I would otherwise. Let this not reflect on the overall quality of the pieces themselves.</p><p></p><p><strong>Window of Opportunity</strong></p><p>If there is one re-occurring theme as I turn over each of these ingredients in my head, it is disappointment. Very few of these ingredients strike me as standouts (though the one's that are!), and quite a few just leave me... disappointed. This is the first ingredient I'll be discussing, and I was disappointed to see both authors taking this ingredient as it is typically used (rather than trying to work in some clever literal window!) Its use in "Race" is perfunctory; the brief opportunities to attack the hag before it flees deeper into the mine. "Postmortem" is more subtle about it, but generally speaking the entire adventure is a "window of opportunity" for the PCs to get a second chance at life. That's honestly a pretty usage, overall. There are some issues there though that I'll need to come back to.</p><p></p><p><strong>Nameless Things</strong></p><p>In contrast, both authors used this ingredient quite well. The term "things" isn't really justified in either piece, but their namelessness makes sense in the context of both adventures. There's a little bit more interactivity with the "Nameless Things" in "Race" (well, at least 2/3rds of the time), but then, a solution presents itself to give these creatures back their names. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though; a condition that the PCs must deal with and solve is a stronger ingredient usage than as a condition to be prevented.</p><p></p><p><strong>Weird Magic</strong></p><p>The "exact wording" nitpicker in me wants to dock "Postmortem" for its "Wyrds", but the etymologist in me will let it slide (as "Weird" descends directly from "Wyrd"). What I'm less inclined to let slide, however, is that the Wyrds <em>aren't </em>synonymous with the Norns. Rather, they're very directly called out as one of the three factions. Specifically, it seems, the faction most closely associated with technology and industry. It's a little cloudy, but then, it's a difficult adventure to parse overall. In "Race", the hag is at least casting magic. It's a little weirder than usual, I guess, but any low-level spellcaster can conjure a Fog Cloud, for instance, ladle or no. The fact that the entry goes out of its way to always refer to the hag's magic as "weird" betrays its weakness here.</p><p></p><p><strong>Unlightable Lantern</strong></p><p>This represents probably the biggest gulf in between the two entries on a single ingredient, and it leans heavily in favor of "Race". It's a fiendishly clever little trap, and its unlightable nature makes it even more likely to be sprung. That it ties directly into the Nameless Things makes the ingredient all the stronger. Meanwhile, the lantern in "Postmortem" is perfectly able to be lit; in fact at least one of the three factions are trying to do just that (and still another probably plans to light it again soon). Had the ingredient been "Unlit Lantern", it would be in the same category as the "Nameless Things" of "Race". Sadly, however, that was not the case. </p><p></p><p><strong>Occupied Mine</strong></p><p>This was one of the ingredients I proposed, and while I didn't share this fact with the other judges, I will say that my motivation for including it was to play directly against the trope of the "<em>Abandoned </em>Mine". As an Occupied Mine, the setting of "Race" barely qualifies. There are a precious few humans huddled near it, but otherwise it was occupied, abandoned, re-occupied, and summarily re-abandoned by these same frightened humans. Thematically, however, the dungeon plays just like any other "Abandoned" mine would, with the appropriate monsters "occupying" it. The mine in "Postmortem" is, on the other hand, quite occupied, and it makes for a pretty fantastic and chaotic set-piece overall, with a slew of meaningful choices in how the PCs might go about dealing with the situation. We'll need to talk about "Postmortem" and meaningful choices later, however.</p><p></p><p><strong>Old Ways</strong></p><p>This one is subtle in "Postmortem"; perhaps too subtle. The nearest I can gather, this is represented by the third faction, the "Freedom" Norns. As an ingredient that will only be directly relevant one third of the time, it's not that great. The other two factions will, presumably, need to deal with this third group (provided the dice don't completely screw over The Freedom Norns), but they honestly seem much more concerned with each other. The ingredient is fairly cleverly presented in "Race", but there's not really much to the role it plays in the adventure. It is, essentially, "the way to go". That's not great.</p><p></p><p><strong>Faster Car</strong></p><p>I was also quite disappointed that neither adventure really has any kind of cars in it. Sure, there are trains, airships, chariots, and minecarts. None of those are cars, however. If I'm inclined to being generous (which I'm not sure I am) one could include the train's "cars" and call the minecarts "cars", as both ingredients do. In this case, there's a bit more of a meaningful choice for the PCs in "Postmortem" in whether they take the time to soup up their locomotive (to which the train "cars" are, incidentally, attached), but that assumes that the PCs (a) side with the Wyrds (which to me seems like the least likeable faction) and (b) aren't running so desperate behind they can't waste the turns and need to pray for a couple of 10's/12's. Because otherwise, mathematically, yes, you make that choice 100% of the time. There's a little bit of a puzzle with whether the PCs will notice the second mine cart in "Race" is faster, but that's the extent of the real interactivity, and mine "car" is even more of a stretch than the train "car".</p><p></p><p>So we end basically tied on ingredients, and I can't quite say which has the advantage. I even tried doing a Wicht/DT-esque quantitative point system; it came out as a tie. Once again, then, I forced to make a decision based on the relative strengths of each adventure as an adventure.</p><p></p><p>We'll start with "Race", the more straightforward of the two. If there's one big knock on this adventure, it's that it's relatively safe. Normal. Oh, there's a fun twist with the lantern and the Nameless Things, and the moral quandries of how the PCs deal with them before they learn their true nature. How many do they kill before they do learn? That fun little twist aside, however, there's nothing else to really say about it. It's a fairly bog-standard D&D adventure, for good or ill. </p><p></p><p>Then there's "Postmortem", which promises to be the kind of colorful norsepunk fever-dream that Thor: Ragnarok (and the Kirby-era cosmic weirdness comics that inspired it) gave us on screen. There's tons of choices, lots of complications and really cool set pieces. The idea of pitting the PC's two most hated dead villains against them again is inspired. Yes, it promises to be a truly great adventure.</p><p></p><p>And yet, it mostly kind of fails.</p><p></p><p>The reasons for this failure are many, and the adventure might have survived one or two of them. The moment-to-moment action itself does deliver actually on those promises, as well. But there's too many issues here, and what's most disheartening is that they were mostly unforced errors. Let's go over them, one-by-one.</p><p></p><p>First, the stakes are muddy at best and pointless at worst. Oh sure, there's the literal "PC's must succeed to get a second chance at life" stakes that probably serve well enough to drive the PCs on its own. But that's just a way to tie the PC's personal stakes into the broader stakes of the story which is... which Norn controls Yggdrasil, I guess? Maybe there's some broader cosmic alignment issues at play here [I gauged the three factions as N (maybe leaning NE), LG (maybe leaning LN), and CN (maybe leaning CG), respectively] but otherwise I can't see any other reason why the PCs should care. Given this sets up the first actual choice for the PCs, it doesn't really help that there's not really a ton to go on as to what the ultimate cosmic consequences of that choice is. And that gives the choice only the <em>illusion </em>of meaningfulness.</p><p></p><p>We see this same illusion again in the "choice" of how fast to go. The even/odd mechanic is the linchpin of this whole race (and thus the adventure of a whole), and as near as I can tell it's entirely and utterly broken. Whichever die is chosen, the odds are the same to make progress or run into a complication either way. And since each faction is racing to get where they're going the fastest, the right choice is going to <em>always </em>be the die with the biggest numbers. I get that the higher-numbered odd complications are supposed to be more "difficult", but a complication is a complication, and by getting to their locations faster by rolling higher even numbers, they'll end up having fewer of them overall. I'm no math major, so maybe I'm <em>really </em>missing something here. I don't <em>think </em>I am though.</p><p></p><p>This is what I said about the unforced errors. We didn't <em>need </em>to know the exact mechanic by which the race is settled. In a fully published adventure, of course, it does need to be there. But in this competition we're asking for <em>synopses. </em>If we didn't know the exact mechanism by which it worked, we as readers and judges could have probably inferred a better one than what is ultimately supplied here.</p><p></p><p>And this brings us to the greatest unforced error in the piece. So much so that the adventure would have been better served going over the word count by, say, 11 words (or even just 6). After all the PCs have gone through, if, at the very end, they ultimately don't succeed, they...... just get sent on another errand? That's... that's it? This ending is so unsatisfying that it renders the stakes, not just for the cosmos but for the three Norns themselves, moot. Ah, can't win 'em all champ. Don't worry about it, it happens, that was just for practice anyway. Now this time what I want you to do is... </p><p></p><p>I've spent a LOT of time talking about my issues with this adventure. Which one should take as a bad thing, right? I mean, sure, of course. But also, here's the thing. <em>There's so much to talk about with this adventure. </em>Say what you will, but it's not boring. Iron Sky took <em>risks </em>on this adventure, and odds could be that these issues are ones that bother me way more than anybody else (including my fellow judges). Splitting the entry into essentially three different adventures is a tricky thing to do, and while it did hurt with a few of the ingredients, that aspect of the adventure works like gangbusters (when we aren't pretending anybody's going to roll a d4 for speed in this particular system). Again, the moment-to-moment action here is fantastic. It's <em>memorable. </em>And if the players can find a reason to sympathize with one of the Norns over the others, and they ultimately succeed? This would probably be one of the ones talked about for years and years. "Remember that time we died, then all of a sudden we were dropping bombs on that armored train driving up Yggdrasil while fighting off flying Norse chariots?" But as it is, for me... I'd honestly have a hard time caring. I'd certainly want to be not dead anymore, so I guess there's that. But that's a relatively weak motivator, all told.</p><p></p><p>And I also don't want to short-change "Race" here. It isn't a <em>bad </em>adventure by any means, in fact it's quite good. I wouldn't call it boring, not even comparatively. But it is a fairly traditional, <em>safe, </em>adventure. Iron Sky took significantly more risks, shot for a much higher star, and came damn close to sticking the landing before it all fell apart. </p><p></p><p>So, that's plenty enough words spilled from me. What, then, is my judgment?</p><p></p><p>[SPOILER="Final Judgment"]I fully expect to be in the minority on this one when all is said and done, but I have to give the win to [USER=59816]@FitzTheRuke[/USER] on this one. </p><p></p><p>There's a big caveat here: on the chance that you do make it to the final round, I want to see something spectacular from you. I consider (and again I may be in the minority on this) "Portmortem" to be a bit of a train wreck, but I still almost went with it at the end in spite of myself. It's not going to be enough to give us something solid. You're gonna have to knock our socks off.</p><p></p><p>[USER=60965]@Iron Sky[/USER], you and I have had a bit of a history not really <em>getting </em>each others' stuff, so maybe I'm just the odd one out. That's why we have three judges, after all. You don't need me to tell you've created some amazing stuff, and this had to potential to be among it. But for me, the stakes just were not there, and I couldn't get past it. Maybe I'm the weirdo.</p><p></p><p>This was a really really tough one to judge. Even now, as I'm wrapping this up, I'm still not <em>quite </em>sure I've made the right decision. But I've been sitting with it for a while now, and this is the way that I feel I have to go for now.</p><p>[/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p>For now, we have one more judgment incoming, which may or may not determine who wins this match.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gradine, post: 8167406, member: 57112"] [B][U]Judgement for Round 2, Match 2: Iron Sky vs. FitzTheRuke[/U][/B] Wow, these are two very different adventures! And both promise to great fun as well, with a desperate race providing a driving sense of urgency for the players. One of these adventures took... a few more reads to really get a handle on. The other is a fairly straightforward and typical adventure structure, though with its own unique twists. I will say that I'm struggling, at this point, to say which adventure seems to be an early favorite. So, to begin, let's break down each ingredient, and how it's utilized in [USER=60965]@Iron Sky[/USER]'s "Postmortem" and [USER=59816]@FitzTheRuke[/USER]'s "Race to the Bottom" (hereafter "Race"). I'll note that due to the close-ness of this race at this early juncture, I'll be judging these ingredients even more harshly than I would otherwise. Let this not reflect on the overall quality of the pieces themselves. [B]Window of Opportunity[/B] If there is one re-occurring theme as I turn over each of these ingredients in my head, it is disappointment. Very few of these ingredients strike me as standouts (though the one's that are!), and quite a few just leave me... disappointed. This is the first ingredient I'll be discussing, and I was disappointed to see both authors taking this ingredient as it is typically used (rather than trying to work in some clever literal window!) Its use in "Race" is perfunctory; the brief opportunities to attack the hag before it flees deeper into the mine. "Postmortem" is more subtle about it, but generally speaking the entire adventure is a "window of opportunity" for the PCs to get a second chance at life. That's honestly a pretty usage, overall. There are some issues there though that I'll need to come back to. [B]Nameless Things[/B] In contrast, both authors used this ingredient quite well. The term "things" isn't really justified in either piece, but their namelessness makes sense in the context of both adventures. There's a little bit more interactivity with the "Nameless Things" in "Race" (well, at least 2/3rds of the time), but then, a solution presents itself to give these creatures back their names. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though; a condition that the PCs must deal with and solve is a stronger ingredient usage than as a condition to be prevented. [B]Weird Magic[/B] The "exact wording" nitpicker in me wants to dock "Postmortem" for its "Wyrds", but the etymologist in me will let it slide (as "Weird" descends directly from "Wyrd"). What I'm less inclined to let slide, however, is that the Wyrds [I]aren't [/I]synonymous with the Norns. Rather, they're very directly called out as one of the three factions. Specifically, it seems, the faction most closely associated with technology and industry. It's a little cloudy, but then, it's a difficult adventure to parse overall. In "Race", the hag is at least casting magic. It's a little weirder than usual, I guess, but any low-level spellcaster can conjure a Fog Cloud, for instance, ladle or no. The fact that the entry goes out of its way to always refer to the hag's magic as "weird" betrays its weakness here. [B]Unlightable Lantern[/B] This represents probably the biggest gulf in between the two entries on a single ingredient, and it leans heavily in favor of "Race". It's a fiendishly clever little trap, and its unlightable nature makes it even more likely to be sprung. That it ties directly into the Nameless Things makes the ingredient all the stronger. Meanwhile, the lantern in "Postmortem" is perfectly able to be lit; in fact at least one of the three factions are trying to do just that (and still another probably plans to light it again soon). Had the ingredient been "Unlit Lantern", it would be in the same category as the "Nameless Things" of "Race". Sadly, however, that was not the case. [B]Occupied Mine[/B] This was one of the ingredients I proposed, and while I didn't share this fact with the other judges, I will say that my motivation for including it was to play directly against the trope of the "[I]Abandoned [/I]Mine". As an Occupied Mine, the setting of "Race" barely qualifies. There are a precious few humans huddled near it, but otherwise it was occupied, abandoned, re-occupied, and summarily re-abandoned by these same frightened humans. Thematically, however, the dungeon plays just like any other "Abandoned" mine would, with the appropriate monsters "occupying" it. The mine in "Postmortem" is, on the other hand, quite occupied, and it makes for a pretty fantastic and chaotic set-piece overall, with a slew of meaningful choices in how the PCs might go about dealing with the situation. We'll need to talk about "Postmortem" and meaningful choices later, however. [B]Old Ways[/B] This one is subtle in "Postmortem"; perhaps too subtle. The nearest I can gather, this is represented by the third faction, the "Freedom" Norns. As an ingredient that will only be directly relevant one third of the time, it's not that great. The other two factions will, presumably, need to deal with this third group (provided the dice don't completely screw over The Freedom Norns), but they honestly seem much more concerned with each other. The ingredient is fairly cleverly presented in "Race", but there's not really much to the role it plays in the adventure. It is, essentially, "the way to go". That's not great. [B]Faster Car[/B] I was also quite disappointed that neither adventure really has any kind of cars in it. Sure, there are trains, airships, chariots, and minecarts. None of those are cars, however. If I'm inclined to being generous (which I'm not sure I am) one could include the train's "cars" and call the minecarts "cars", as both ingredients do. In this case, there's a bit more of a meaningful choice for the PCs in "Postmortem" in whether they take the time to soup up their locomotive (to which the train "cars" are, incidentally, attached), but that assumes that the PCs (a) side with the Wyrds (which to me seems like the least likeable faction) and (b) aren't running so desperate behind they can't waste the turns and need to pray for a couple of 10's/12's. Because otherwise, mathematically, yes, you make that choice 100% of the time. There's a little bit of a puzzle with whether the PCs will notice the second mine cart in "Race" is faster, but that's the extent of the real interactivity, and mine "car" is even more of a stretch than the train "car". So we end basically tied on ingredients, and I can't quite say which has the advantage. I even tried doing a Wicht/DT-esque quantitative point system; it came out as a tie. Once again, then, I forced to make a decision based on the relative strengths of each adventure as an adventure. We'll start with "Race", the more straightforward of the two. If there's one big knock on this adventure, it's that it's relatively safe. Normal. Oh, there's a fun twist with the lantern and the Nameless Things, and the moral quandries of how the PCs deal with them before they learn their true nature. How many do they kill before they do learn? That fun little twist aside, however, there's nothing else to really say about it. It's a fairly bog-standard D&D adventure, for good or ill. Then there's "Postmortem", which promises to be the kind of colorful norsepunk fever-dream that Thor: Ragnarok (and the Kirby-era cosmic weirdness comics that inspired it) gave us on screen. There's tons of choices, lots of complications and really cool set pieces. The idea of pitting the PC's two most hated dead villains against them again is inspired. Yes, it promises to be a truly great adventure. And yet, it mostly kind of fails. The reasons for this failure are many, and the adventure might have survived one or two of them. The moment-to-moment action itself does deliver actually on those promises, as well. But there's too many issues here, and what's most disheartening is that they were mostly unforced errors. Let's go over them, one-by-one. First, the stakes are muddy at best and pointless at worst. Oh sure, there's the literal "PC's must succeed to get a second chance at life" stakes that probably serve well enough to drive the PCs on its own. But that's just a way to tie the PC's personal stakes into the broader stakes of the story which is... which Norn controls Yggdrasil, I guess? Maybe there's some broader cosmic alignment issues at play here [I gauged the three factions as N (maybe leaning NE), LG (maybe leaning LN), and CN (maybe leaning CG), respectively] but otherwise I can't see any other reason why the PCs should care. Given this sets up the first actual choice for the PCs, it doesn't really help that there's not really a ton to go on as to what the ultimate cosmic consequences of that choice is. And that gives the choice only the [I]illusion [/I]of meaningfulness. We see this same illusion again in the "choice" of how fast to go. The even/odd mechanic is the linchpin of this whole race (and thus the adventure of a whole), and as near as I can tell it's entirely and utterly broken. Whichever die is chosen, the odds are the same to make progress or run into a complication either way. And since each faction is racing to get where they're going the fastest, the right choice is going to [I]always [/I]be the die with the biggest numbers. I get that the higher-numbered odd complications are supposed to be more "difficult", but a complication is a complication, and by getting to their locations faster by rolling higher even numbers, they'll end up having fewer of them overall. I'm no math major, so maybe I'm [I]really [/I]missing something here. I don't [I]think [/I]I am though. This is what I said about the unforced errors. We didn't [I]need [/I]to know the exact mechanic by which the race is settled. In a fully published adventure, of course, it does need to be there. But in this competition we're asking for [I]synopses. [/I]If we didn't know the exact mechanism by which it worked, we as readers and judges could have probably inferred a better one than what is ultimately supplied here. And this brings us to the greatest unforced error in the piece. So much so that the adventure would have been better served going over the word count by, say, 11 words (or even just 6). After all the PCs have gone through, if, at the very end, they ultimately don't succeed, they...... just get sent on another errand? That's... that's it? This ending is so unsatisfying that it renders the stakes, not just for the cosmos but for the three Norns themselves, moot. Ah, can't win 'em all champ. Don't worry about it, it happens, that was just for practice anyway. Now this time what I want you to do is... I've spent a LOT of time talking about my issues with this adventure. Which one should take as a bad thing, right? I mean, sure, of course. But also, here's the thing. [I]There's so much to talk about with this adventure. [/I]Say what you will, but it's not boring. Iron Sky took [I]risks [/I]on this adventure, and odds could be that these issues are ones that bother me way more than anybody else (including my fellow judges). Splitting the entry into essentially three different adventures is a tricky thing to do, and while it did hurt with a few of the ingredients, that aspect of the adventure works like gangbusters (when we aren't pretending anybody's going to roll a d4 for speed in this particular system). Again, the moment-to-moment action here is fantastic. It's [I]memorable. [/I]And if the players can find a reason to sympathize with one of the Norns over the others, and they ultimately succeed? This would probably be one of the ones talked about for years and years. "Remember that time we died, then all of a sudden we were dropping bombs on that armored train driving up Yggdrasil while fighting off flying Norse chariots?" But as it is, for me... I'd honestly have a hard time caring. I'd certainly want to be not dead anymore, so I guess there's that. But that's a relatively weak motivator, all told. And I also don't want to short-change "Race" here. It isn't a [I]bad [/I]adventure by any means, in fact it's quite good. I wouldn't call it boring, not even comparatively. But it is a fairly traditional, [I]safe, [/I]adventure. Iron Sky took significantly more risks, shot for a much higher star, and came damn close to sticking the landing before it all fell apart. So, that's plenty enough words spilled from me. What, then, is my judgment? [SPOILER="Final Judgment"]I fully expect to be in the minority on this one when all is said and done, but I have to give the win to [USER=59816]@FitzTheRuke[/USER] on this one. There's a big caveat here: on the chance that you do make it to the final round, I want to see something spectacular from you. I consider (and again I may be in the minority on this) "Portmortem" to be a bit of a train wreck, but I still almost went with it at the end in spite of myself. It's not going to be enough to give us something solid. You're gonna have to knock our socks off. [USER=60965]@Iron Sky[/USER], you and I have had a bit of a history not really [I]getting [/I]each others' stuff, so maybe I'm just the odd one out. That's why we have three judges, after all. You don't need me to tell you've created some amazing stuff, and this had to potential to be among it. But for me, the stakes just were not there, and I couldn't get past it. Maybe I'm the weirdo. This was a really really tough one to judge. Even now, as I'm wrapping this up, I'm still not [I]quite [/I]sure I've made the right decision. But I've been sitting with it for a while now, and this is the way that I feel I have to go for now. [/SPOILER] For now, we have one more judgment incoming, which may or may not determine who wins this match. [/QUOTE]
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