Iron Heroes a flash in the pan?

Felon

First Post
I've been out of the loop for a while and have been thinking about starting up an IH campaign. Looking back through the IH PHB a lot of questions resurface, and I thought maybe I missed out on some developments. For instance, was it ever established as an error that no class was given an "excellent" base defense (instead, most classes wash out with an "average" defense bonus). And then there's the arcanist and the related magic system, which seriously needs an official alternative. Has anyone ironed that out? At the Malhavoc IH site I don't see any errata available, which seems pretty surprising (or maybe I just missed it).

Is IH still supported at all now that Mearls is working for WotC? Unfortunately, I can no longer find a Search feature here at ENWorld, so i can't do the research on my own.
 

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Thanks for the links! Unfortunately, the ongoing errata thread is enough to give me second thoughts about using IH at all, and to hope against hope for a revised edition.
 


I've been using the system for about a month now and I am, at best, so-so on it.

Admittedly, I still feel like I was badgered into running the game when our last campaign collapsed (two players left, too many missed sessions, now have a somewhat reformulated group, etc.), but I was hopeful that I could pull of a Fafhrd & Grey Mouser kinda feel to it. The biggest problem for me, of course, is that I am not a combat monkey and, even more than basic D20, IH is all about combat. While there are certainly non-combat skills, etc., they are given the short shrift. Look at the Social and Lore Feat Masteries for examples this way.

The Arcanist is simply broken. Mike has pretty much admitted this. As such, don't even try to use it. If you go over to http://ironheroesarcana.pbwiki.com/ there is a much better Arcanist (Soulmage's 3.0 version).

In play I find that you need to know a LOT more about your combat area. Not simply where walls are and where holes are, but also if there are ledges, chairs, barrels, ropes, etc. As such, the game screams out to be played 3-D, and I don't just mean walls. I mean to really capture to the feel of the game you would need to be able to move characters up and down, have stuff to throw, etc. This would also mean moving away from "squares/hexes" to "inches/centimeters", as it would be the only logical way to map combat.

The game can be great fun for the combat, but it also requires a lot more thought. Equally, some character types really only shine in very particular environments. The Armiger and the Man-At-Arms are good pretty much anywhere; the Weapon Master isn't bad, as long as there is a tough guy on the field -- otherwise they never really get to shine. The Hunter (incredibly misnamed) is solid, but primarily as an adjunct to other members of the party. Archer? Good if they have cover, but if they are out in the open they are in trouble. Berserkers tear through weak hordes like nobody's business but can have problems against the Big Bad unless they have backup. The Executioner (read: assassin) needs cover and time. As they strike best when undetected and as they wear very little armour, they have to be able to sneak, hide, and then pounce; again, if caught in the open they can be in big trouble. The Harrier needs room, room, room -- in tight spaces they are useless as they do very little damage and don't have a great base defense. The Thief is great as the Skills Monkey, but gets nailed in combat very quickly; as written, this is almost strictly a support class.

Yes, there is a lot of Erratta and a long FAQ now. To my eye that means this project was nowhere near completion when it was released. A few questions is one thing; this list is now a 30+ page print out.

Overall my feeling is that there are great ideas in this game, but very poor execution and follow-through. My group will probably continue with it for a while, but after that we will drop it and move strictly to Ars Magica. I think our days of D20 are finally done.
 

At this point it definatly seems like a tinkerer's dream system as there is so much that is... debatable.

Many points in the debate are really overstated. There are a couple of editing problems, but nothing's really broken. Even the magic system is fine, mind you. This is just a question of tastes (i.e. "evocation not strong enough", etc).
 

I agree that the magic system isn't necessarily broken, but it does have a few significant issues and for me personally doesn't suit my taste. But there are a few well written alternatives that are already available to download. I'm using EoM and it works out great!

Iron Heroes was designed for combat first and magic a distant second, and it really does provide an outstanding system for heroic fantasy campaigns. If that is not the style of game you want to play, then you will definately be unhappy with IH.

I think the support that IH has from its fan-base is really good.
 

As Odhanan said, much of the supposed balance issues with IH are out-and-out overstated. Much of the brouhaha occurring on the IH boards regarding houserules and other tweaks are largely due to different gamers' personal tastes, not to inherent gaps in the system. Keep in mind that IH is an advanced player's ruleset, of sorts (in that it is targeted for players and GMs already familiar with the D&D 3.0/3.5 rules), so it naturally attracts the same sort of people who spend tons of time on, say, these boards discussing rules questions, fixes, house rules, errata, etc. regarding D&D. These folks are natural tinkerers; I wouldn't say that IH encourages that behavior, but rather that it's a character trait that's as easily applied to IH as to Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Grim Tales, or D&D.

As for how thought out the system was based on the FAQ: Read that thread. Compare it to the FAQs released for the D&D core rulebooks. Note how much of the FAQ thread is about suggestions, optional tweaks, and alternatives for addressing particular gaming issues rather than about incomprehensible or unworkable rules. You'll note that what the FAQ really expresses is a rapid jump by players and designers alike to tinker with the system to fit individual tastes.

I'd say that overall, with the exception of the Arcanist and its spellcasting system, IH plays pretty fine. I've had far less work to do making it go in my group than I did with D&D, or even with AU/AE. As to the following:
Wombat said:
In play I find that you need to know a LOT more about your combat area. Not simply where walls are and where holes are, but also if there are ledges, chairs, barrels, ropes, etc. As such, the game screams out to be played 3-D, and I don't just mean walls. I mean to really capture to the feel of the game you would need to be able to move characters up and down, have stuff to throw, etc. This would also mean moving away from "squares/hexes" to "inches/centimeters", as it would be the only logical way to map combat.
I would turn this statement around a bit. I think that IH encourages more detailed description of the combat area, because of the stunt system. IOW, the stunt system codifies a lot of the cool things that players like to do already in d20 combat, and generally got done (at least IMC) by DM handwaving. It's fun (at least for some folks) to get more description about your combat area, and to use all those ropes for swinging, barrels for rolling down and knocking over enemy guards, and ledges for springing on to, but it's hardly necessary. Options, not restrictions.
Wombat said:
Equally, some character types really only shine in very particular environments. The Armiger and the Man-At-Arms are good pretty much anywhere; the Weapon Master isn't bad, as long as there is a tough guy on the field -- otherwise they never really get to shine. The Hunter (incredibly misnamed) is solid, but primarily as an adjunct to other members of the party. Archer? Good if they have cover, but if they are out in the open they are in trouble. Berserkers tear through weak hordes like nobody's business but can have problems against the Big Bad unless they have backup. The Executioner (read: assassin) needs cover and time. As they strike best when undetected and as they wear very little armour, they have to be able to sneak, hide, and then pounce; again, if caught in the open they can be in big trouble. The Harrier needs room, room, room -- in tight spaces they are useless as they do very little damage and don't have a great base defense. The Thief is great as the Skills Monkey, but gets nailed in combat very quickly; as written, this is almost strictly a support class.
I'd have some specific disagreements with some of your class descriptions (the Thief is quite survivable in combat when played properly, and berserkers do a fine job of taking on BBEGs, even having a class ability [March of Ruin] specifically tailored to help them do so, etc.), but more to the point: Isn't this how d20, or at least a D&D-style d20 game, is supposed to work?

D&D provides a string of choices (classes, PrCs, magic item selection) that characters must make in order to achieve a suitable build. Those builds are never effective in all situations; try building a combat wizard that can survive being grappled, for instance. Thus, D&D classes have somewhat defined roles; clerics are primary healers and secondary fighters, rogues are primary skill monkeys and secondary combatants, etc. What's interesting about IH is that due to the general combat-effectiveness and high number of feats and skills available to every class, most classes can be built to be good at most things. For instance, the hunter and man-at-arms make for ranged combatants almost as good as the archer in most situations, and a Weapon Master with Cleave and Mobility feats can do an excellent job of battlefield control. In fact, IMHO, IH provides ways for any character to accomplish skill-related obstacles, defeat multiple opponents, or take on a BBEG. They just do it in different ways, which to my mind is the essence of a good class system.
 

Wombat said:
Yes, there is a lot of Erratta and a long FAQ now. To my eye that means this project was nowhere near completion when it was released. A few questions is one thing; this list is now a 30+ page print out.
I guess that means that DnD 3.5 was even further from its completion with its 63 pages of FAQ, and additional pages of errata.
 


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